1: Niklas Wiechmann, parkour-style routesetter
Thanks for tuning into the inaugural episode of the podcast! Niki is a routesetter with over 20 years of experience, setting for both commercial gyms and competitions. He’s known for setting “parkour-style” boulders that require creative movement rather than raw power. We’ll hear from him about what it’s like setting for world cup level climbers, how the IFSC chooses holds and setters, different competition formats, and how to improve the future of competition climbing. You can find the links below to follow along on his journey with BetaRoutesetting on Youtube or Instagram.
Show Notes
Guest links:
https://www.instagram.com/schniklas
https://www.youtube.com/@BetaRoutesetting
Reference links:
The only climbing movie to watch: Stone Monkey
Q&A video about world cup setters: Q&A
Interview with IFSC President: Marco Scolaris
Timestamps
Timestamps of discussion topics
0:00 - introduction
2:25 - how he got into routesetting
4:24 - what it was like growing up within the climbing community
7:10 - learning to love climbing again
9:19 - tricky niki, the birth of parkour style climbing
11:15 - my embarrassing lack of climbing knowledge, Johnny Dawes
14:39 - response to routesetter criticism, he’s willing to fight
17:26 - how to set for an elite level climber
20:05 - are climbing moves getting too repetitive?
21:40 - existential crisis, why are people interested in watching comp climbing
25:58 - are there any unforgettable climbing moments?
29:16 - how the IFSC chooses world cup setters
35:47 - what’s missing from world cup coverage
37:38 - IFSC holds
39:00 - networking his way into the world cup
41:39 - will we see the infamous spinning wheel climbing hold in a world cup?
42:52 - setting rules that shouldn’t exist
44:44 - how setters set for climbers who can climb harder than them
51:40 - how to set for a broad skill differential, the Janja problem
55:56 - future of routesetting trends
1:02:27 - a unique team-based competition climbing format
1:05:56 - what competition climbing needs in order to grow in popularity
1:07:30 - IFSC was founded with the intention of bringing climbing to the Olympics
1:11:45 - a new world cup idea
1:14:57 - how to bring more money into climbing?
1:18:05 - the takeaway, climbing is not set in stone
1:19:55 - where to follow Niki’s journey!
1:20:55 - outro
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Hello and welcome to the first episode of the That's Not Real Climbing podcast. I'm your host,
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Jinni, and I'm really excited to introduce my guest for today, Nicholas Wiechmann. He's been
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route setting for over 20 years at commercial gyms and competitions, and he's one of the first
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to integrate tricky parkour style moves into climbing. In this episode, we'll get into what
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it's like setting for World Cup level climbers, how the IFSC chooses holds and setters,
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different competition formats, and how to improve the future of competition climbing.
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So whether you think parkour style movement is real climbing or not, hear him out for what he
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has to say and let us know in the comments how you feel about it. Hope you enjoy this conversation
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with Niki. Awesome. Well, yeah, thank you for joining me. How are you doing today?
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Good. I just came from having a climb at friend's gym and it's good. Weather's lovely. I'm good.
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Where are you right now? I'm in Marburg, which is like to the
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north of Frankfurt in the middle of Germany, straight in the middle of Germany. And yeah,
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my mother's living here in a rural village. There's like 200 people living here in the middle of
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nowhere, fields and a dog and sheep and cows and everything. So it's quite lovely. How's the
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climbing gym there if it's so rural? So the city, like where the climbing gym is in like,
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it's like 20 minutes by car. And it's like the city has like 70,000 citizens and inhabitants.
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And the gym is quite small, like 400 square meters inside and outside wall, maybe 100 square
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meters or a little bit more. And it's super good. It's like really like one of the best like
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distinctive setting. I know it's like friends from Berlin who moved down here. And the head setter
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Lucas has a really good style and character and setting. I love it. And it's like a nice little
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community and just building up since last year when they opened. Oh, okay. Cool. Well, yeah,
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I think that kind of brings us right into it. Since you are a setter and you have a lot of
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strong opinions about setting, I believe, probably. So just starting out, how did you get into
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climbing and specifically route setting? So my father is one of the early sport climbing
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generations. Like he started climbing in the 70s, which was still like with like technical
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eight climbing and then like his generation and friends of his like they developed like this
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red point and all these like new ethics. And so he's been climbing for a long time. And he opened
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one of Germany's first commercial climbing gyms in 1999, which is still running and my hometown,
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Kassel. And they started a ballering competition. I think back then in Germany, there were like three
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bouldering competitions. And I think they started the third one. And they had an annual competition
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every first weekend of November. And as a kid, I think, yeah, so it was 1999. So I was 11. Since I
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was 12, I always like had to help like stripping the walls beforehand. And at some point, I was
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allowed to stay on Monday and skip school and reset the whole gym or help like the setters.
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And so I started setting up some point and started helping with the competition setting there and
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setting commercially. I was 14, 15, something like this. And I did it more and more. And at some
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point, I got invited to set like local regional comps for the regional like state federation.
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And I got more and more invitations to other gyms and traveled around from gym to gym setting
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commercially and comps. And then it didn't make sense for me to go to university like I tried to
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go to university. But I was a little bit lost because there was too many people. I didn't know
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what I wanted to do with it. And at the same time, I earned money with being a freelance root setter.
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And I never stopped. So you sort of grew up in the community. Yeah, pretty privileged like there
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was always climbing around me. And I wasn't pushed into anything. And I stopped climbing a few times
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as well because I kind of hated it always being surrounded by climbers. I've never seen a hotel
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from the inside until I was 18 and could afford it on my own. Always like dirtbag like camping,
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sleeping in cabins, like always going on climbing holidays. And like it may sound like a dream,
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but if you're forced to do it, it was like and because my father like he developed
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areas and did a lot of first ascents and it was a kind of like, yeah, well known in the northern
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Germany part. It was always like, not like having my parents to climb. There was always like people
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around my parents and like, what about this route? What about this area? So I didn't enjoy it at all
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as a kid. But it was quite cool that my parents never really pushed me when I was older either.
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They were like, if you want to climb competitions, yeah, there's a train ticket. That's how the train
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tickets work. You go there by yourself or like just organize it with some of your friends. I'm
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not interested to drive you to take part in any climbing competitions, which I think was a pretty
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healthy habit. Okay. Yeah, that's interesting. I've always kind of wondered what it's like for people
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who grew up surrounded by that. If it sort of, I guess, changes how they interact with the sport.
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I think a lot of people who discover it later in life kind of just love it immediately and they're
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all in and they, I don't know, kind of develop a different relationship with it.
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Totally, totally. I always ask myself like, if I would have started climbing later, if I would have
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continued or liked it at all, what I knew from early on and what my mother also always told me,
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because she met a lot of these famous people and they're all pretty normal people up to sociopaths.
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If you want to do something on an elitist performance level, they are like, yeah,
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so yeah, social-wise, not the best people to be around with. A lot of them are not decent
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human beings or have something that's not that cool. That's still the case in competition climbing.
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That's what I liked about it. I always knew that all these people who are climbing at a
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blah, blah, blah limit, they're just human beings and a lot of them are like proper assholes.
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Okay. Exciting. I won't ask you who specifically is an asshole, but maybe one day I'll find out.
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Maybe you can tell me offline. You said that occasionally you hated climbing and you took these
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breaks. I guess what changed for you eventually that made you love it again?
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I found the cool thing about climbing is that you can do whatever you want. A lot of people think
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you have to do this, you have to do this, and climbing works like this. But climbing, equal
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slash route setting, it's a pretty young sport, so you can do whatever you want. If you just want to
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do slab climbing, you just go slab climbing. If you don't like pockets, don't climb on pockets.
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If you just like top roping, for example, I had a nasty fall when I was 15 and I was pretty badly
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traumatized, but no one actually helped me to deal with the trauma. But from the age of 15 to,
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I don't know, 21, I just top roped. I'm pretty good at top roping, the steepest stuff ever.
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I found paths in climbing which I like, and especially route setting. The performance
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climbing wasn't something for me. I cannot deal with the pressure. I hate walking around three
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days through the forest because I have to save my skin just for a really good goal. What do you
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gain from climbing at your limit? You know that you can do it. Maybe there's a next limit, but you
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become pretty alone, pretty focused on just one stupid thing, climbing up a rock or plastic stuff.
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Sometimes I'm jealous of people who can do this, but there's so much more in climbing,
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so much more movement, and so much more stuff you can discover if you just take the pressure off
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and just enjoy moving. The way you move, what you can do, there are so many endless possibilities.
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So I think finding out that I can be in climbing the way I want to and that I can climb just the
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stuff to have fun is sometimes weird to other people, but it was definitely healthy for me.
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No, it's great to just have fun in climbing. I think a lot of people wish they could just do
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that. I know you have your nickname, Tricky Nicky. What was your journey into getting that nickname?
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Difficult to say. My vision was always to offer bouldering and climbing routes. I stopped
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saying routes a while ago, like over 10 years ago. Just focus on bouldering because it's more social
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and you can spend more time with it. My goal was always not to push people or to encourage people
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to get stronger. A lot of times it was like, okay, I cannot do this boulder problem. What do I need
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to do to solve this move? I need to get stronger, fitter, in a better physical shape. Because most
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of our customers are recreational weekend warriors, whatever you might call them, and just people who
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want to have fun and who don't want to train on a physical side. My goal was always to be able to
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create easy to difficult problems, up to difficult problems, which are just tricky. So you need to
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solve more your positioning. You need to work out how something works. Just change your body position
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slightly or use momentum. People were forced to engage themselves with the boulder problem and
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maybe get in social interaction with other people. To create tricky problems instead of
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only physical problems. A lot of people think I'm not setting physical stuff at all, which isn't
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true. But this is just Pandora's box once you open it. It came together with a little bit of
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the parkour movement. For me it was always mixing a lot of different styles. When I went to the
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Peak District, I think it was 2014 or 2015, there were a lot of bouldering problems opened up by
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Johnny Dawes. While I don't have any climbing heroes, Johnny Dawes is pretty cool. Because he
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did a lot of like, you hop from this little boulder onto this little stone, then you jump to this
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sloper on the crack. This was kind of like an established boulder problem. Why shouldn't you
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jump around or run around over volumes and holes? Because it's a use your momentum. And a lot of
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people were like back then, oh, that's not climbing. But whatever, you can do whatever you want as long
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as it's climbing holes. You can put all that stuff on the wall, like buckets, dog, all that stuff,
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and just create movement riddles or situations for people to enjoy. That's more or less how I got to
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this nickname. Thanks for mentioning the name of the podcast. Johnny Dawes, was it? Is that
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a setter that you feel like you were inspired by then? No, Johnny Dawes is an outdoor climber from
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the Peak District from Great Britain. He was the first one. He was the first one, I think,
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who climbed E8 and E9. He had a really beautiful dancing climbing style. So everyone who is into
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climbing movies, there's actually just, in my opinion, one climbing movie you should watch,
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which is called Stone Monkeys. And this is the only thing you ever need to see about climbing.
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It's mid-end 80s England, and it's great. It shows a little bit about lifestyle and climbing culture
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back then. Gotcha. Okay, I'll put that in the show notes. You can tell I'm not really familiar with
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outdoor climbing. I never liked that much. That's all right. That's cool. That's actually what I
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liked here. When I read a little bit about what you posted, it was like, yeah, there should be
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people who are proud of not being into outdoor climbing, because why not? And I guess, what was
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it for you? Did you have many discussions with other people about that? No, I mean, people hate
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me for not liking outdoor climbing. But I think for me, I never really liked it because I actually
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don't like being outside. I'm just like an indoor person. There's just too many elements outside,
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whether it's too hot, too cold, too wet, whatever. And I do like the tricky parkour style movement
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more. I think it is a lot of fun to play around on. So yeah, I've definitely more preferred the
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competition route. I try to call myself a competition climber so that people have some respect for me
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instead of just being an indoor plastic climber. But that's kind of odd, right? That people are
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kind of gatekeeping, are arrogant, are like, this is not real climbing, what you're doing. I had to
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deal with this a little bit. And I think you should be pretty proud of yourself being like, yeah,
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like I admire it being like, yeah, outdoors, nothing for me, weather, whatever. And indoors
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is a good place. Like there are good places in Norway where you can have fun and socialize.
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Yeah, yeah, I'm a lot happier this way. So like, what is your response, especially as a route setter,
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route setters get a lot of hate online for the new setting. People are always saying that in like
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YouTube comments for competitions, they're always saying that it's not real climbing and maybe it's
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like too height dependent, too new school, too many like dangerous moves. What's your response to
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that? I mean, hot takes. I think there are always two sides to it, or not two aspects, two things
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about it. On the one hand, like people who sign up for a competition, they sign up to climb like
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that stuff. So they don't ever know like what's coming. And for route setters, it's always a
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little bit nicer or a little bit easier with coordination dependent stuff to create a ranking
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and split a field. Because like judging and guessing, estimating like how strong people,
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climbers are physically is super, super difficult. But if you set something
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really like wobbly and uncomfortable and something where you need to commit, it's just a little bit
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easier to guess that a lot of climbers might need more attempts. When it comes to all these like
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short calling, like this is not real climbing, like who's to say what is real climbing? I'm like
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really sick of people being like so adamant and so arrogant about like, this is not really climbing
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anymore. Yes, this is not outdoor climbing because it's indoor. It's like totally different spots.
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And a lot of people don't get it. It's nowadays like two different spots in my opinion. That's
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called climbing. That's two entirely different disciplines. You don't go indoors nowadays,
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mainly to be fit for outside outdoors. You can do this. But a lot of gyms just offer and cater to
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many different people and target groups and want to cater to different needs. So I don't know whether
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it's still an unpopular opinion, but people can fight me online, offline. I'm always there to fight
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and discuss about the realness of climbing because this is like pretty arrogant and gatekeeping wise
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to tell people this is not real climbing. Comp climbing in IFSC comps has this style nowadays.
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There are other competitions which go to a different direction. And yeah, was it an answer? I don't
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really know. Yeah, I think that covers it. I'll leave your info below if anyone wants to fight you
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on it. And maybe you'll get some good messages about that. Yeah, so you say that setting wobbly
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stuff, stuff that might be low percentage works well for competitions with high level athletes.
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At some point, they must have practiced all those moves so many times that it's not surprising for
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them anymore. I mean, is that the case? Or is there always some way to make it something new they
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haven't dealt with before? You might think so, right? Like, yeah, yeah, it's a good question.
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Like, I never thought about it like this way, because once you're in it, no, it doesn't seem
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like that. They always try to prepare by like every single move, like even if it's just in
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reiteration. So maybe let's start from the start. In climbing, there's essentially just two things
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you can do, in my opinion, pushing and pulling. And you have the three dimensions, like horizontal,
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vertical, and the depth of a wall, or like things hold volumes attached to a wall. And even though
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it's basically like push and pull into different directions, it's always a new reiteration of a
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move, like a slight like a mutation, a permutation of a palm push over and of a jump and whatsoever.
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And you should never like, I think you always have to account for the comp environment,
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being nervous, sometimes seeing or knowing or not knowing the boulder problems, their own weakness,
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the order of a round. If you start with a slap, creates an entirely different feeling than when
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a round finishes with a slap, for example. So there are a lot of mind games. And I think what
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we did a lot of times, like that was 2013 and 14 with the German team, for example, we set training
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camps where our goal was to put them into uncomfortable positions, just like mentally wise.
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So they learn to deal how to behave in a, or like decision making in a situation where they don't
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know what to do about it. And I think I forgot the question again. I don't think we will see
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like so much new anymore, but at the same time, all the moves in a competition are always like
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new mixes of already existing like moves in theory, but like the comp environment always
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changes everything up. So they cannot climb the same move again, which they already trained in
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in training. Yeah, I was just thinking that because after watching a few World Cups, you start to
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notice that a lot of the climbers moves that seem like they would have been uncomfortable at one
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point, they just kind of breeze through it since they've done that same exact kind of move so many
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times before. Good climbers, right? Or good competitors. And what I'm always more amazed of,
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or amazed by, amazed of like, what amazes me is like, sorry, I'm not a native. Anyway, it's like
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that a lot of climbers are not really improving on slab climbing, for example. And slab climbing is
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pretty easy to train. It's just like, do it again, do it again, do it again, push your heel down,
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trust, trust, trust, commit, trust. It's nothing, not that much physical in general, like other
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problems. So you can always try it, try it, try it. And especially if you're tired, when you're in a
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good headspace, when you're in a bad headspace, always go to the slab and do some exercises. And
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that's what amazes me more, because a lot of physical climbers apparently don't want to spend
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time dealing with the weaknesses, in my opinion. And that's...
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Yeah, that trust is hard.
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But when you say, for example, that a lot of climbing competitions, because that would be a
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question for me, why other people watch climbing competition, like I'm... Yeah, I'm not over it,
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but I'm really bored of the COM format and the IFSC COM format nowadays. And that like, what makes
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it like interesting for you, if you say like, the moves are repetitive, like, what's so exciting
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to watch it then? Well, I don't... I think for me, I don't find the moves repetitive, like I still
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love seeing them. And I think they're still interesting to see. I just wonder for the
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competitors if they're repetitive. Actually, this year, I feel it's a bit... it's been a bit
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repetitive with all the Lachey moves, like the swing and jump onto something. But I still like
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seeing it. I mean, some people are a lot flowier than others, and it's interesting to see the
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difference. Man, now you've got me questioning why I like watching them. It's still fairly new to me.
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I think that's probably part of it.
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Yeah, it amazes me always, like, what do people want to see in climbing competitions? Because
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when I think about good competitions, or just like good sports for me, and I'm watching like a lot of
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sports, I'm watching tennis, cycling, footy, soccer for all the Americans out there, not like football.
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Yeah, like Olympic games, track and field, like I just enjoy a lot of. And I think it's
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just enjoy a lot of sports, but a lot of sports have a rivalry, or you have like a home court
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advantage, or like something changes. But IFSC comes, whether it's in Seoul or
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Vail or Germany, the wall is slightly different, but the holes are also always like different,
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but different. Then they're like the team is different, same, same, but different.
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So it's not that USA, IFSC World Cup feels entirely different to the World Cup or the
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World Championship in Bern. That's something you just see different moves, because like the
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setters create something new, and there's like a different weight on the whole event. Because
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sometimes the World Championship is not really important to become a World Champion, because
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everyone will forget who's becoming the World Champion this July and August, because it's
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just about like getting to the Olympic Games. So everyone will forget that. And I'm like,
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yeah, I'm curious. Yeah, I'm just curious in general, what people,
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do they have like favorite climbers, or like favorite vaults? Like is it like, oh, the
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Salt Lake World Cup is always the best World Cup? I don't know.
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I mean, do you not feel like there's like any rivalry going on in climbing World Cups? No,
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you can never say like Adam versus Jakob, because it's never, in my opinion, not there.
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There hasn't been like any rivalry in climbing like this, where like two people are at the peak
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and always fighting, maybe in the early 90s, like Le Grand versus the other French guys.
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But it's so much depends always on the route setting. While it's like so volatile, the right
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word, like it's a little bit like gambling. Like it's never like, sure, you know.
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I love gambling though.
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Gamble yourself, gambling yourself because it's addicting, like you bet on something. But there
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are no betting systems on climbing. That would be great, right? I'd love to bet on climbing.
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My god.
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Okay, so I'm curious, what do you think about climbing?
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Okay, yeah. Oh yeah, maybe we should start that. Yeah, something addictive like that.
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That'd be great for the community.
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But the density is so high, like in the semi-finals, like first to get into the semi-finals
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and then the semi-finals itself, to get into the finals. It's like never like this,
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the six same competitors, or like four competitors making it into the finals. It's like
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really, really difficult to retell and rewrite a story. Like which climber just had an unlucky
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slip two weeks ago in the finals and maybe now they are really close. It's like really
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similar boulder problem two weeks ago. And now it's just about not slipping again, you know,
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like this learning curve, same situation. I cannot think of anything like, and I don't know since when
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you watch bouldering or climbing competitions, but please tell me the most impressive climbing
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moment you ever had in a competition. That's hard to think of. There's just,
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maybe it's like the amount, there's just so many moments that felt amazing in the moment,
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but maybe I just don't think hard enough about it.
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I'll have to think about that.
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That's something what I'm thinking about a lot because like in other sports, they're like games,
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there are moments where like a competition also turned, like you don't, and in computer gaming,
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you call it like a comeback mechanic. Like if you're down like after two boulders, for example,
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you get in computer games, like there's always like, for example, for all the, most of people
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played Mario Kart, I guess like on Nintendo. And if you're like in the last position, you get this
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blue shell, which always hits like the further you're back, the better your items are. So you can
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maybe make it back to the front and get back into the game. But like climbing like this, okay,
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we got like two people leading after the first two boulders, but that those two people are not
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able to climb boulder three and four and fall completely back while someone from the back goes
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to the front. Almost never happens. It's a little bit like maybe some twists at the front.
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But it's like I'm missing the spice a little bit. And this could be because I'm like
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watching it like for decades now, but yeah, I'm always, yeah, always looking like for something
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else a little bit.
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The one I can think of that happened most recently, which is probably why I can think of
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it is I already forget where this took place, but it was like Toby Roberts on like men's foreign
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finals. I think that was the most most recent one.
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Yeah, that was in Brixen. Yeah, a few weeks ago.
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Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. You were there for it. Yeah. That was a good moment, right?
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Yeah, that was a good moment. And we had to, it's another thing like the whole crew created this
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moment this year and last year, same crew created a similar moment in the male final when I think
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Yannick Flohe topped something. So it was also pretty hard and like in the last seconds or last
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attempt. But it's really difficult to create a final like this, which is unforgettable.
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And yeah.
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Well, I mean, if every moment is unforgettable, then everything becomes forgettable, doesn't it?
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Okay, you beat me there.
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I don't know. Yeah. Okay. Well, okay. Anyway, we got derailed. Let's move on to like the World
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Cup stuff since we're sort of on that. And I know you're not like a like an official IFSC
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setter. But yeah, I saw your video on setting a qualifier boulder at the World Cup in Brixen
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2022. And yeah, this was covered a bit in the Q&A video that was on your channel that I'll
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link in the show notes, people can check it out. But to give people some background here,
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just because I think a lot of people don't really know how anything in the IFSC works,
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there's not much information out there about it. How do setters get chosen for the World
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Cup? I think you said that there are only six. And is there a group of setters that does every
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single World Cup?
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So like for a specific World Cup now? Or how do you become an IFSC setter? Or how do you?
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Yeah, like in general, how like, I guess, how do they choose who gets to set for the competition?
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Okay, let's do it this way. Like there's a pool of licensed IFSC setters. And
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this how you become how you become an IFSC setter, how you get a license is not a clear process.
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And people should be aware of, I think, I don't know what happens now with me, whether the IFSC
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listens to this, but they should be aware of that the IFSC is a sport union like the IOC,
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like the FIFA. So it's pretty, it's a circle joke. So it's not an open thingy and not like really
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like, how do you like not trans visible, like the process is how to get where and how to get to
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something. It's not pretty obvious. And I think it's a very, very, very, very, very, very, very
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obvious. And like, how do you know, how do you get to something? It's not pretty obvious. And
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there's a lot of like, who do you know? And yeah, so it's not a fair process, in my opinion,
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to become an IFSC setter. For each Boulder World Cup and Lead World Cup, though, there is one IFSC
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chief out of these IFSC setters. Some have a chiefing license, some do not. And the chief
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is, how do those three get appointed? That's a really good question. Even some IFSC setters
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cannot answer. Some IFSC setters last year, for example, told me, okay, they got a Google sheet
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with a lot of competitions, and they could apply like for three or whatsoever. And they had to do
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this in the next 48 hours. And other people said they don't know. Maybe there's a better
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process progress nowadays, how to pick and where they want to set for. Sometimes the IFSC, for
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example, last year in Brixen, we had one of the IFSC setters who was setting in Brixen. And then
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the week afterwards was the Lead World Cup and Boulder World Cup in Innsbruck. And he was
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written or like appointed officially for both of these World Cups, like in the event sheet,
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he was on both of these World Cups. And on Sunday, no, on Monday after the finals,
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a friend of mine took me from Brixen to Innsbruck, and we took him with us. And we were like,
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yeah, when do we start setting here? And he's like, wait, what? I'm not setting Innsbruck.
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So the process is a little bit like, yeah, out there. But as mentioned before, each World
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Cup has three appointed IFSC setters. This year and last year already, some of the IFSC World Cups
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have a fourth IFSC setter, which is not an official IFSC license setter, but a setter coming
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through the diversity program. The IFSC apparently has a diversity program where people
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of not that developed countries and underrepresented groups get chosen to attend other
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World Cups and European Cups to get more experience. And hopefully with this experience,
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improve their home federation and organization. This is no path to become an
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licensed IFSC setter though. So a lot of these people from the diversity program,
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they don't know what happens. Some people get chosen to continue, some not. It's also not a
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pretty understandable process, but setter number four this year in Brixen was Anna, and she came
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through the diversity program. And then the home nation, the hometown federation, home country
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federation can appoint up to three setters. So in Brixen, for example, three Italian setters.
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I also know that some federations like the USA, for example, they invited some French guys,
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or a French guy, at some point, even though this French guy, for example, didn't have an IFSC
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license. So to get appointed by the hometown home federation, you don't even need to have an IFSC
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license. Well, at the same time, in my opinion, IFSC license is not a quality passport license
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whatsoever. I know some IFSC setters, well, I'm like, yeah, okay, maybe not. Well, I was like,
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I like highly qualified and educated and experienced. Yeah. So it's very interesting
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to see. So it's very, it's a very unofficial and, I guess, kind of networking process? Like,
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yeah, there's a lot of networking, maybe the process is a little bit more obvious or official
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nowadays in 2023 to get to the World Cups. But like to get, for example, also like appointed by
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a national federation to be there at the World Cup is a lot of work, a lot of like politics.
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And I know, for example, some IFSC setters sometimes take some of their prodigies, like some of their
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friends or like pupils or scholars with apprentices to some of the World Cups to give them more
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experience, which is nice, but it's not an obvious, like, open process to learn for everyone.
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So how did you network your way into setting one of the qualifier folders?
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Yeah, that's a really good question. So I have a gym, I used to have another gym, and at some point,
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I started video formats like Boulder of the Week, just to showcase that climbing is cool,
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and that route setting is also cool. And I did different formats, and just to show ballering
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and route setting more and more. The IFSC coverage of the streams was never something I'm really into.
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And watching it for two hours, and then just boom, cut, fade to black, that's it. And there used to
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be like competitions where there was like an appeal, for example, because someone stepped on
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a ball or whatsoever. I think I remember something, Adam Ondra stepped onto a ball, I think there was
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like a World Championships, a really important thing to get to the world, to get through the
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Olympic Games, then the stream cut to black, no one knew the results. And then I think he had to
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start again at the other world qualifier event at Toulouse. Was it Adam Ondra? But something like
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this. So the after show, the after event coverage just sucks. Yeah, let's put it like this, it sucks.
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Like there's a World Cup, stream, boom, and, but you don't have an expert, you don't have any
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athletes, you don't have like a feedback, like any like review. So I started these World Cup
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reports. That's like what the most people honestly watch on my YouTube channel. So I'm taking
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the stream and analyze like why climb by A climbed something while climb by B failed,
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because I think this was missing in our sports. And at some point, I started working on top of it
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on top of it for climbing holes. Brand climb holes.com they have six brands in our portfolio.
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And some of those brands are IFC brands. And I'm working for this brand to showcase like how our
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holes work, what you can do with it. And at some point, like some of our distributors, for example,
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in Brixton, high five, or is that Italian distributor, they are the sole whole sponsor for
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the World Cup. So if people don't know, like the IFC doesn't own any hold, they don't own
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any climbing wall, they go to a city to a federation and the federation's all that's
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for this way, the federation applies to be able to host a World Cup, then the federation
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gives a venue whatsoever. And the venue has to host the World Cup. And they have to bring
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only IFC licensed hold brands and companies. And these gyms usually don't have enough budget for
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this or like the hold storage and space is not enough to set a World Cup. And the budget is
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around 100,000 euros for a bouldering World Cup. Of course, it depends on the hold sponsor. But in
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Brixton, for example, the material to be able to set these 36 boulder problems, yeah, 36 boulder
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problems was material worth of 100,000 euros. And how do I get there? Like I essentially
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approached some, I think in 2019, I just went to ARCO to the Youth World Champs because I was
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because I wanted to talk to the IFC, but I can do my reports like with together with them.
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And then I just filmed the setters and a little at night when they had their resetting sessions.
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And I filmed interviews with the setters and with Jackie and other people. And then I showed like
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tweaking, resetting how the comp turned out. And people liked it. So I found a new format. And for
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competitions, which we sponsor, I can go or sometimes I go StudioBloc, for example, this year
364
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:57,040
and then 2020. And Brixton last year, Brixton this year, there will be like five YouTube episodes
365
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:03,280
about like five different boulders and the five different setters of Brixton, how they set their boulder
366
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:09,280
and how the boulder turned out. And in September, I will go to Koper in Slovenia and try to do the same
367
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:16,560
for a lead climbing World Cup. And because I'm a setter, I'm hanging around like the whole week
368
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:24,960
with the setting team. And a lot of them know me and I don't try to get into their way. But
369
00:40:24,960 --> 00:40:29,520
yeah, I'm a setter. So sometimes it's still like really like, ah, yeah, I want to do something as
370
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:37,840
well. And if like, if there's some possibility, then I hop onto the drill as well. And that's how
371
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:44,720
I got to Brixton. Okay, exciting. Yeah, I wanted to go back to when you were talking about the holds
372
00:40:44,720 --> 00:40:53,120
a bit. So you said the like this one company supplies all the holds that they use in the World
373
00:40:53,120 --> 00:41:00,240
Cup? Only at the Brixton World Cup. Yes. So the whole distributor, so a whole distributor is someone
374
00:41:00,240 --> 00:41:05,360
who just sells your holds. And usually like whole distributors only work in one country.
375
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:11,040
Sometimes they work like in Italy, in Austria, or like being in Lux, Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg,
376
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:15,600
which is like the same area. But a whole distributor usually has like a contract with,
377
00:41:16,800 --> 00:41:21,680
I don't know, like different amount of, for example, six brands, and then they sell only
378
00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:27,680
these six brands to customers and to gyms. And in this case, like the whole distributor needs to have
379
00:41:30,640 --> 00:41:37,520
IFSC licensed brands, which are eligible, like allowed to be set with in the competitions.
380
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:45,040
Are they ever gonna, I guess, use like those super niche kind of holds that are coming out,
381
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:51,360
like the like the spinning ones, stuff like that? I think the spinny ones, I think there's like 360,
382
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:57,120
I think what you're talking about 360, they have a wheel, like a wheel. Yeah. My pronunciation is
383
00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:05,280
wrong. Doesn't matter. And they are a licensed IFSC brand. I think you always have to pick,
384
00:42:06,240 --> 00:42:12,000
you have to apply for all the holds. Or like you have to pick like certain holds of your portfolio.
385
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:17,360
And the spinning thing, I think it's a safety risk. So we will never see it. They used to be,
386
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:25,200
they used to be, ah, when was that? I can remember, I think 2011 or 2012, we had at one of the German
387
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:36,800
cups, we had like a free hanging volume on ropes. And they, it's just safety issues. And yeah, so
388
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:42,640
they got rid of it. It's also like, it's safety issues and more difficult to judge. So they got
389
00:42:42,640 --> 00:42:51,920
rid of it. And I don't think they will ever get it back onto the IFSC stage. Yeah, that reminds me
390
00:42:51,920 --> 00:43:00,560
of one of the questions from the discord. Is there any IFSC setting rule that you wish didn't exist,
391
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:08,240
or that prevents you from setting something that you would want to set? There used to be, I think
392
00:43:08,240 --> 00:43:14,240
it was also around 2012, 2013, there used to be more running starts. So what we see nowadays is
393
00:43:14,240 --> 00:43:21,600
like the starting position has four tapes. So it's like always like four points, four limbs to those
394
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:28,640
parts. While for example, back then, it used to also be possible to, it was possible to have like
395
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:35,920
two tapes and a square or a huge rectangle to tape off a surface. So you could, for example, run onto
396
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:42,480
a volume, so two feet on the volume, and your hands just touching the wall. And you just touch this
397
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:51,600
space. And there used to be more like running jumps like from the floor. And I think there was like
398
00:43:52,160 --> 00:43:57,600
also four tapes, but different kind of taping. So you were allowed to use the volumes before the tapes,
399
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:03,840
stuff like this. Yeah, I kind of miss this a little bit, because like action straight from the ground.
400
00:44:03,840 --> 00:44:12,160
But otherwise, yeah, no, no, not that much. Yeah, I wish we could do more stuff with fire, but like,
401
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:17,440
yeah, I don't know. Jump through the burning ring of fire, like I'm still trying to find like the gym,
402
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:24,240
which allows me to do this. Yeah, I think it would be pretty cool. Yeah, maybe, maybe bring that up.
403
00:44:24,240 --> 00:44:31,920
And we'll see if anyone is willing to do that. It'd be great to see. Okay, back to more of a
404
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:37,280
basic question. I'm not sure if this is something, this is probably something routes that is good a
405
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:44,080
lot, but I think a lot of people aren't aware. When you're setting for climbers who climb the
406
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:52,560
hardest, like at a World Cup level, what's the for running process like for boulders that are,
407
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:57,520
or I mean, boulders, routes, whatever that are harder than you can do yourself?
408
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:04,320
And yeah, you were also like sick at Brickson last year. So I'm sure that makes it much worse.
409
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,880
Yeah. So in general, it's always a team effort. So they put like,
410
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,640
yeah, I don't want to make any advertisement, but I'm doing it now. So if you actually want to see
411
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:18,960
it, like get really, really deep into it, like how they set a boulder, check out my channel,
412
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:23,760
because it's like, you can see it for one hour, how they just set one hour.
413
00:45:23,760 --> 00:45:28,720
But in general, it's a team effort. So the whole round has like different styles and
414
00:45:28,720 --> 00:45:34,720
characteristic curves. And the team sits together, or the chief says, okay, this is physical,
415
00:45:34,720 --> 00:45:41,520
this is technical, this is coordination, this is freestyle. And then you either pick something you
416
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:50,400
feel good with, or you get something pointed to set something. And then you set it and then you
417
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:56,880
set it. And in general, at the World Cup so far, I've been to every single move has been done,
418
00:45:57,920 --> 00:46:07,040
but they never climb or almost never climb a boulder problem from the bottom to the top in one
419
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:14,880
go. They have so much experience. And it's also experience guessing, like how much like the second
420
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:20,400
part, how difficult it is in combination with the first part, which you tested in the morning and
421
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:27,040
tweaked slightly afterwards. And then you just go on and test the upper part. And how you in
422
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:33,040
general do this, it's a lot of experience watching stronger climbers. And at some point, some of the
423
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:40,400
team step back, don't test everything anymore. Maybe they test the next day. And it always comes
424
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:46,160
down, sometimes like to two really strong people, but the rest of the team watching, analyzing,
425
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:52,320
helping those testers and setters all together, like thinking about solutions.
426
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:59,360
So it's sort of like, as long as you guys can do each move in isolation, it's okay, maybe.
427
00:47:00,240 --> 00:47:06,320
Yeah, I haven't been to a World Cup where they say, okay, this move hasn't been done,
428
00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:11,840
but I'm pretty sure that climbers can do it. But I myself have done it many times.
429
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,480
I love a little bit of a gamble, but like not on a World Cup stage.
430
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:23,200
Yeah. And so do you sort of study the pro climbers to know what kind of moves they're
431
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,200
comfortable with, what kind of moves they're not?
432
00:47:27,280 --> 00:47:32,240
It depends on like what kind of setter you are. Let's put it this way. In a qualification round,
433
00:47:32,240 --> 00:47:40,960
you see, I think, 90 bowlers in the male category or 100 men, and I think it was 60 women or 70,
434
00:47:40,960 --> 00:47:47,520
something like this. So you already see them. And the setting team can always compare the
435
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:54,240
qualification round to the semi-final round to the final round, depending, talking about the
436
00:47:54,240 --> 00:48:01,840
difficulty. So sometimes on a qualification round, they set one of the best players in the
437
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:06,880
world. They set one bowler which they think has like the same difficulty as one of the semi-final
438
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:12,160
bowlers, just to be able to compare. And then some of the styles or some of the sections,
439
00:48:12,160 --> 00:48:19,040
parts of the bowlers kind of like ask a question of the climber, how strong are you? How flexible
440
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:27,280
are you? How good are you at reading a sequence? How confident are you to jump out of an uncomfortable
441
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:34,800
position? And these can be answers for the root setters like in which shape or in which state of
442
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:40,800
mind climbers are. And then according to this performance on a qualification round, for example,
443
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:47,600
they can tweak the semi-final accordingly. And then the semi-final, it's only 20 more climbers.
444
00:48:47,600 --> 00:48:53,360
It's pretty, pretty, pretty difficult. So they ask again the questions of physical technique,
445
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:58,240
how to read bowler problems, how to perform under pressure. And then for the finals,
446
00:49:00,240 --> 00:49:04,800
after the semi-finals, the semi-finals get stripped, everyone goes out of the stadium or the
447
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:12,160
venue. And then if there's a curtain, like the setting team can start resetting the finals
448
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:19,040
earlier. If there's no curtain, then there's like an isolation time where all the finals have to be
449
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:26,320
in isolation and are not allowed to take a look at the wall anymore. So the setting team usually
450
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:33,440
has like a few hours to test and tweak the final climbs again if they want to. So they know, for
451
00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:37,920
example, what happened on the semi-finals and in the qualification bowlers. And then they are like,
452
00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:44,160
OK, Jongwon climbed this physical bowler really easy, and he's in the finals. So our physical
453
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:51,120
bowler in the finals has the brief that only one climber should reach the top. Then we make it a
454
00:49:51,120 --> 00:49:55,920
little bit more difficult. This could be an example of how they go about the difficulties
455
00:49:56,640 --> 00:50:02,800
and how they watch climbers. Sounds stressful. Yeah, it's super stressful. And it's connected
456
00:50:02,800 --> 00:50:10,400
with a lot of emotions because it's not a science. Like I said, like it's educated or experienced
457
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:17,840
guessing. Like you never know how strong a climber really is. You never know what they can really do
458
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:24,320
and you never know really how the conditions are because like finals start, they start setting
459
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:31,360
finals on Sunday. Then they test and tweak until Monday noon. Then Monday afternoon, they start
460
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:38,880
setting semi-finals. Then Tuesday testing and tweaking semi-finals. Then Tuesday evening
461
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:43,440
stripping the semi-finals. Then on Wednesday, they start setting qualification group one,
462
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:51,600
or like one gender qualification group. Test, tweak, strip. On Thursday, they set the other
463
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:56,480
qualification group. While you have like a quiet, great time at the venue on Sunday, Monday, and
464
00:50:56,480 --> 00:51:01,360
Tuesday, on Wednesday, there's already like people from the IFSC putting cameras onto the wall
465
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:07,760
and mounting stuff. Like the venue, like all the video screens go up and stuff like this. So like
466
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:13,600
there's a lot of pressure, a lot of people around you and every day like you deteriorate with skin
467
00:51:14,240 --> 00:51:21,200
and power all over the week. And yeah, so there are a lot of like factors coming together,
468
00:51:21,200 --> 00:51:27,600
especially for an outdoor venue. Like sometimes it's sunny, humid, wind, it's changing all the time.
469
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:33,760
So yeah, a lot of pressure. Yeah, there's a lot of issues with outdoor venues. It's like the worst
470
00:51:33,760 --> 00:51:42,320
of outdoor climbing, but put into indoor climbing as well. But anyway, yeah, that sort of leads into
471
00:51:42,320 --> 00:51:48,800
another one of the discord questions. When there's a lot of differences in between styles of the
472
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:55,280
climbers, or for example, there's like one climber who's way stronger than everyone else, like if
473
00:51:55,280 --> 00:52:00,880
Yanya is going to be competing, or if a climber has practiced a certain move a thousand times,
474
00:52:00,880 --> 00:52:07,680
how do you set to account for things like that? In general, there's a guideline, which is kind of
475
00:52:07,680 --> 00:52:14,160
like too broad to, not to define, but on the other hand, it's really difficult to define it.
476
00:52:14,160 --> 00:52:20,000
You try, or the setting team always tries to ask as many different questions of each climber as
477
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:28,480
possible. So they set a very diverse round all over each round, but they try to. And you gotta
478
00:52:28,480 --> 00:52:36,800
imagine it's five boulders in qualification, four boulders in semifinals and four boulders in finals.
479
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:44,320
And each boulder is also split into two parts, like to the zone and after the zone to the top.
480
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:51,280
And in each boulder, if possible, you try to have like different styles sometimes, or sometimes you
481
00:52:51,280 --> 00:52:56,400
mix dynamic to the zone and another kind of dynamic to the top. But like they try to create
482
00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:03,200
a different mix already. This also heavily depends, of course, on the wall shapes. In Brixen,
483
00:53:03,200 --> 00:53:10,560
for example, for the finals and semifinal walls, it's not allowed to use the side panels. So like
484
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:17,680
the whole frontal wall, every panel is overhanging. So it's pretty, pretty difficult to create
485
00:53:17,680 --> 00:53:27,200
non-physical tricky slab, for example. So there are different demands, different goals, different
486
00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:35,520
ways how to create a good mix. If you have someone in the finals who's always way better than the
487
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:43,200
others, Janja for example, then they try still to create like four boulders, which split the field
488
00:53:43,200 --> 00:53:48,480
somehow. It's not like, okay, this boulder is only for Janja, because that would mean that the other
489
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:56,080
three boulders are only there to split the other three athletes. And what they did really well,
490
00:53:56,080 --> 00:54:03,120
for example, this year, there was one slab in Prague where Janja didn't win, or Janja won, I think.
491
00:54:03,120 --> 00:54:08,800
Janja didn't climb. So maybe it's due to a foot injury.
492
00:54:08,800 --> 00:54:15,600
Possibly, yeah. Yeah. But I don't think, for example, at Studio Bloc 2020, when Janja was competing,
493
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:21,600
it was not about like, okay, this boulder is only for Janja. We were always thinking that all the
494
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:28,160
boulders are possible for everyone, like for all the competitors. Yeah. But maybe for listeners, or
495
00:54:28,160 --> 00:54:39,360
like for the listeners out there, like Janja and Natalia Grossman, they apparently, or like I heard
496
00:54:39,360 --> 00:54:44,080
many stories that they are when it comes to some boulder problems, which are not length dependent,
497
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:48,640
that they are able to climb for the guys. So it would be really cool to have a competition at some
498
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:53,440
point, or we see them competing all in one category.
499
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:59,760
Yeah, so many people want to see that. That would be amazing. And that's sort of a rivalry, isn't it?
500
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,560
Janja and Natalia a little bit.
501
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:10,160
Could be. I don't know. I don't know how many times they really competed in the peak performance
502
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:13,680
against each other. But yeah, could be.
503
00:55:13,680 --> 00:55:19,680
Yeah, they actually haven't. I think a lot of people were hoping for this year, since people
504
00:55:19,680 --> 00:55:23,840
heard Janja was going to be coming back to bouldering competitions.
505
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:28,320
Maybe we will see something at the World Champs. Sorry to interrupt you.
506
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:35,120
Oh, no, no. Yeah, I think like, both of them have sort of had issues and they're not really competing
507
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:47,600
in their in their primes. So, but yeah, anyway, let's talk about the future of route safety.
508
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:58,400
The future of route setting. What, so there are kind of like trends in route setting in a way.
509
00:55:58,400 --> 00:56:03,840
What do you think is like the current trend and what do you think is next?
510
00:56:03,840 --> 00:56:07,920
Are we talking about competition setting now? More like route setting?
511
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:13,120
I was thinking competitions, but I don't know, is there a huge difference?
512
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:16,880
Yeah, I think there's a huge difference between competition and commercial setting.
513
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:24,320
People have to have to should be aware that in competition setting, it's a high pressure
514
00:56:24,320 --> 00:56:31,440
environment, time limited wise and only constrained limited amount of holes to create a result.
515
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:36,320
So sometimes there's a lot of like gibbing, bricolage, a lot of like plastic gets screwed onto
516
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:42,560
plastic, which is never in a commercial environment, the best thing to do.
517
00:56:42,560 --> 00:56:47,920
On a competition, there's only like a few amount, like a limited amount of people climbing on
518
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:52,400
something like this in a commercial environment. I would be like, if you really want to put this
519
00:56:52,400 --> 00:56:59,360
plastic on this plastic on this plastic on this plastic, it's something I would consider.
520
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:03,680
I would think about a lot. Let's put this by so there is like a big difference
521
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:08,640
between competition and commercial setting because you can set like more dangerous,
522
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:15,200
more risky moves for people on higher performance scale.
523
00:57:15,920 --> 00:57:20,000
And the future, maybe more of the slippery dual techs. I don't know.
524
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:26,480
Honestly, I don't think there's so much innovation anymore since the last six, seven years.
525
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:33,840
The dual techs was the last real innovation, but on the other hand, like there's just like
526
00:57:33,840 --> 00:57:39,520
more directional, bigger holes. There's a lot of nonsense holes on the wall,
527
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:45,600
which take a lot of space. But now I think we need to see something,
528
00:57:46,480 --> 00:57:50,800
some changes in the competition formats to make it a little bit more exciting, in my opinion.
529
00:57:51,840 --> 00:57:56,080
Interesting. So no like movement trends that you can think of?
530
00:57:56,080 --> 00:58:04,400
No, it always seems like there's something new, but it's just like small reiterations,
531
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:12,560
in my opinion. So it's not. Now, some setters try to go more into this or that direction,
532
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:17,440
but then it heavily depends on the setters. And if someone said something, then a lot of this stuff
533
00:58:17,440 --> 00:58:24,560
gets not copied, but like repeated in a different way. Like you mentioned, like the laches,
534
00:58:24,560 --> 00:58:31,040
I call them a swingerling, where you like swing forth and back. It's an easy way to get like a
535
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:41,680
final round going to create like some action and also split a field. But I think there's not that
536
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:49,200
much more evolution in climbing moves itself happening, because the question is like you have
537
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:55,680
to set it. It takes a long time to set something super fancy, fancy. And then the climbers have to
538
00:58:55,680 --> 00:59:02,160
solve it in four respectively, like five minutes. They have to find the solution and then still like
539
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:06,880
execute it and do it. And then at the same time, you want to create a ranking with it,
540
00:59:06,880 --> 00:59:10,640
that not only one climber can do it, but maybe two climbers in different attempts.
541
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:16,800
Yeah, yeah, I've been a little bit pivoting here, I think.
542
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:23,600
That's good. I think, yeah, it's hard to even imagine what other movement there would be out
543
00:59:23,600 --> 00:59:31,600
there. I mean, I feel like everything has been tried or done. I think recently people have been
544
00:59:31,600 --> 00:59:37,760
trying to set a lot of like 360 moves. But it's kind of hard to force that maybe.
545
00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:44,240
Yeah, and it's like, it comes and goes in waves, I think like these 360 moves are like usually a
546
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:51,600
campus to a pocket, then turn 180, go to the next one and turn 180 again. Is this a 360? But
547
00:59:51,600 --> 00:59:58,080
like we have this many, many times. And it's okay to have something like many, many times.
548
00:59:58,080 --> 01:00:03,920
I love a good reiteration or repetition of a good move mixed with something else. But it comes and
549
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:10,640
goes in waves, I think. And a lot of people like set us when they see something, they try to
550
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:15,600
they try to recreate it to understand how the move works. And that's, that's cool. That's fair.
551
01:00:17,440 --> 01:00:24,320
Yeah, I in terms of 360 moves, there's been a couple recently, where you're like pivoting
552
01:00:24,320 --> 01:00:30,320
on a foot and trying to go around. But I think what happens is a lot of people, especially since
553
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:38,000
it's new, and they're not familiar with the time crunch, they try to just break it. But that's been
554
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:44,960
sort of exciting. Do you think people will get tired of these like trendy moves and people want
555
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:51,120
to move on to the next thing too fast? Or? I know that a lot of competitors get tired of it. A lot
556
01:00:51,120 --> 01:00:59,120
of competitors ask for power, pure power problems, where they can show their strength. And a few,
557
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:06,880
a few competitors don't like the problem solving aspect that much, because it doesn't feel like
558
01:01:06,880 --> 01:01:12,480
they can. I don't know, like, I don't want to speak for them. I just know that a few are complaining
559
01:01:12,480 --> 01:01:20,560
that they are not enough power problems. But it's difficult, like I said, like, there are no rules,
560
01:01:20,560 --> 01:01:25,520
what is the power problem? What is like this coordination problem? And the foot spinning move,
561
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:30,320
it works like if you try to set it at your own gym, it always works better in a corner.
562
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:36,560
And because like there are not that many corners on the comp climbing wall, it's pretty cool that
563
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:44,720
they can pull it off with these dual text volumes where you can only step blindly into it. And yeah,
564
01:01:45,280 --> 01:01:51,200
competitors breaking a thing. I think it's their goal to find a way to the top. So it's totally
565
01:01:51,200 --> 01:01:57,920
fine if they try to break something, as long as it's like cool show. And it's not way, way easier,
566
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:04,320
but just like same, same, but different. Cool. For me, it's cool to see this, because it's also
567
01:02:04,320 --> 01:02:08,800
way of problem solving and being like flexible, being like, yeah, I cannot do this. Maybe I
568
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:18,720
find another solution. And yeah, I like this. Yeah, people love beta breaks. And so in terms of
569
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:27,680
the future, you mentioned climbing formats a bit different formats of competitions. Is there a format
570
01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:35,440
that you like the most in terms of watching or setting? And you also recently set for,
571
01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:43,760
it was called like set and send competition. Yeah. Yeah. Is that like a different format that you
572
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:49,440
liked or yeah, what's one you like the most? So I think my favorite format of all times is called
573
01:02:49,440 --> 01:02:55,840
hard moves. We had it in Germany, I think 2010, 11, 13, and 16. 16 was the last
574
01:02:55,840 --> 01:03:03,200
reiteration and we will never do it again. But it was like 2016 was like, I think 26
575
01:03:03,840 --> 01:03:09,280
participating gyms or maybe more or across Europe. And you competed for your own gym.
576
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:19,760
So you try to qualify each gym at like 60 or 100 boulder problems. And you try to climb as many as
577
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:27,360
possible top or nothing. That's how you get a point. So maximum 100 points and the top 10 competitors
578
01:03:27,360 --> 01:03:35,280
of each gym qualify for that gym, seven guys and three women. And then it was called the then there
579
01:03:35,280 --> 01:03:42,000
was a battle motors. For example, out of these 26 gyms, only 10 moved to the final climbing gym
580
01:03:42,000 --> 01:03:48,800
where there was like with their teams. And to get there, for example, four gyms or six gyms out of
581
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:58,240
the area around Cologne battled on a battle day in 30 boulder problems as a team again. And then it
582
01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:03,760
was like really important that you if you were the strongest climber and you could climb potentially
583
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:11,520
all 30 or 40 or whatever all all boulder problems, is it worth that you climb all 30 boulder problems
584
01:04:11,520 --> 01:04:17,440
and are climbing all the time on your own? Or is it worth that you maybe only climb 28, but instead
585
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:22,080
of spending time for two more boulder problems, spend all the time with the teammates and try to
586
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:29,120
push and give beta and encourage and brush so the whole team gets more points? Then once you made it
587
01:04:29,120 --> 01:04:35,840
through this battle, only three out of six moved into the next battle. We had like one final
588
01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:41,600
location in Wuppertal where I think was 10 gyms. Now must have been more gyms even more because
589
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:49,600
the gym was packed with like 400 people for sure. Anyway out of these another battle one day, like
590
01:04:49,600 --> 01:04:58,640
five hours, only six gyms moved into the super final which was in a pool like an indoor swimming
591
01:04:59,840 --> 01:05:08,240
what do you call it like an indoor spa like with a pool. What do you call it? Yeah and so the walls
592
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:17,760
were built above water seven meters high and we had then in the finals every team puts six climbers
593
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:24,720
into the final two women four guys and there are six boulders to climb and everyone climbs only once
594
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:31,760
so the team in a team effort has to sit down and appoint each respectively climber and the sixth
595
01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:38,880
boulder was hidden so it was like five yeah and then you climb only you get points the higher you go
596
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:43,520
and it was like really climbing in a team and shearing for a team and this is like something
597
01:05:43,520 --> 01:05:50,320
really similar to what I mentioned in the beginning. Popular sports are to grow climbing into mass
598
01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:56,240
popularity in my opinion you need to have something you can identify with as a fan whether it's a
599
01:05:56,240 --> 01:06:06,000
climber a rivalry or a team but if you try to qualify for your hometown gym as a whole team gym
600
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:10,400
you've been through like six weeks sessioning together then you went to the battle day battled
601
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:15,760
other gyms then you went to the final day and you climbed together the finals like the the atmosphere
602
01:06:15,760 --> 01:06:22,320
is way better than any World Cup way better than any World Cup because your identification it's like
603
01:06:22,320 --> 01:06:26,960
it's crazy like you're winning for your city for you for your gym I think this is pretty cool
604
01:06:27,600 --> 01:06:33,440
and we've done this a little bit on in March we did this in a gym in the Netherlands that people
605
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:41,280
qualified in open category and amateur slash recreational category and then a lot of people
606
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:48,720
were waiting for the normal like usual format okay the six strongest dudes and the six strongest
607
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:54,240
women climbing against each other but then we people didn't know then we just packed like
608
01:06:55,280 --> 01:07:04,400
the best guy with the worst guy and like best so we created like four equal teams according to the
609
01:07:04,400 --> 01:07:11,520
qualification or did we have five teams whatsoever and they climbed in the same format in the final
610
01:07:11,520 --> 01:07:16,960
so they had to appoint one climber for each border problem and I think that was pretty cool
611
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:24,960
yeah this is probably not the future for the IFSC because the IFSC just goes Olympic into the IOC
612
01:07:26,320 --> 01:07:34,960
and this is not feasible to to explain to sell to to we people should always be aware of that the
613
01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:42,880
IFSC was founded for the clear goal to make climbing Olympic oh really yeah this there is
614
01:07:42,880 --> 01:07:49,280
an interview on my channel I can give you the link with my I did with Marcos Golares on our
615
01:07:49,280 --> 01:07:58,480
interview where he clearly explains how climbing became an Olympic sport and it also if you think
616
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:03,680
a little bit about it like you will it will show you like where climbing will go easier to understand
617
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:09,680
and whatsoever which is fine climbing is still like a really young sport but people should be
618
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:17,680
aware of or what I'd like to share is like that nothing is set in stone like you can do any
619
01:08:17,680 --> 01:08:23,200
climbing competition you want by climbing so young do with it what you want try new formats
620
01:08:23,200 --> 01:08:27,120
go out there and experiment just because you see something on the stream doesn't mean like
621
01:08:27,120 --> 01:08:31,120
that's the best for our sport for our community or especially for your local community
622
01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:38,400
um there are so much stuff you can do there are so many rules unwritten so much fun you can have
623
01:08:39,040 --> 01:08:45,520
especially with fun local comps just in my gym we do 30 qualification blocks and then
624
01:08:46,640 --> 01:08:52,960
three final blocks for each category and only three tries for each boarder finals quicker faster
625
01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:59,600
over sometimes it works sometimes not and I think that's what people should be know about the
626
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:06,160
the comps in general and comp future I think it will be a little bit easier to understand maybe
627
01:09:06,160 --> 01:09:12,240
they put like numbers at some point next to the holes so it's more obvious to see who climbs
628
01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:19,520
which and what and they should also be aware of that the combined format was like something
629
01:09:20,480 --> 01:09:26,480
what just needed to be done to include climbing in the olympic games and that there were like
630
01:09:26,480 --> 01:09:33,360
many crazy ideas beforehand I think there used to be competitions which had a shootout motors
631
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:39,200
and at my home town gym we used to do this uh six finalists start in boulder number one four
632
01:09:39,200 --> 01:09:45,280
finalists go to boulder number two and then only two go to the last it's yeah it's highly unfair
633
01:09:45,280 --> 01:09:49,200
because if you don't like the jump in boulder number one you won't maybe not make it to the
634
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:56,400
physical boulder yada yada but it's really spectacular and that's what as far as I know
635
01:09:56,400 --> 01:10:03,760
the ifsc or the president planned for the first combined format he was like okay first we will
636
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:11,440
do speed then bouldering and then lead because lead is his special like his favorite discipline
637
01:10:12,160 --> 01:10:17,840
but like the best lead climbers would have never arrived in the lead shootout because like from 20
638
01:10:17,840 --> 01:10:22,480
to 12 to six finalists first all the speed climbers kick all the slow lead climbers out
639
01:10:22,480 --> 01:10:26,560
then the boulderers climb the rest of the lead climbers out then you have only boulderers and
640
01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:32,000
speed climbers in the finals on lead so this would have I think that was the proposal as far as I
641
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:37,360
know and then like all and then all the federations stepped in and were like no no no we need to
642
01:10:37,360 --> 01:10:44,000
develop a different format and then they developed this different format like in a few days in 2017
643
01:10:44,000 --> 01:10:52,240
which later then used in 2018 again at the world championship in sprook yeah so the sport is
644
01:10:53,440 --> 01:10:58,480
pretty young there will be more changes and especially if you're not bound to the ifsc
645
01:10:58,480 --> 01:11:04,640
I'm happy to see new components and new ideas there's always something you can do yeah definitely
646
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:11,680
send me that video that sounds really interesting um I'll put everything in the show notes um and
647
01:11:11,680 --> 01:11:21,040
it would also yeah I I hadn't ever thought about this team based approach uh with like different
648
01:11:21,040 --> 01:11:26,160
cities and stuff that would be really interesting to see but I guess Japan would just blow everyone
649
01:11:26,160 --> 01:11:35,200
out of the water so pretty much don't have a good time against team b pump but when it comes to
650
01:11:35,200 --> 01:11:41,840
when it comes to like my idea would be that for example you have a world cup in the united states
651
01:11:41,840 --> 01:11:47,840
you have a world cup in france you have a world cup in italy uh whatsoever around the world but
652
01:11:47,840 --> 01:11:54,720
that each world cup feels a little bit more it feels different for example in the united states
653
01:11:54,720 --> 01:12:00,880
it's uh maybe it's an exaggeration but like a lot of the american set-ups like to be a little bit
654
01:12:00,880 --> 01:12:07,600
more physical and with deep big pinches and it would make sense in my my opinion if to make it
655
01:12:07,600 --> 01:12:15,520
feel more american only use american brands kilter e-groups i don't know like more stuff like this
656
01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:21,520
just as a majority too so the american climbers always have like a
657
01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:29,280
have a pro what does it mean like a benefit benefit like a step advantage advantage yeah sorry
658
01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:35,280
advantage that's it but then when you go to france for example you climb on french slabs on french
659
01:12:35,280 --> 01:12:40,080
grips i mean it's it's a little bit more delicate so you always know like ah french world cup
660
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:45,840
it's pretty technical then you go to italy where they have like steep limestone roots for example
661
01:12:45,840 --> 01:12:51,280
and small pockets and also italian brands so we have this hometown advantage and every world cup
662
01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:56,000
feels like super different that would be really nice because take a look at tennis you start
663
01:12:56,000 --> 01:13:02,240
with the australian open it's hardcore then you go to france you play ron o'connor you play on
664
01:13:02,240 --> 01:13:08,400
sand on clay where you had rafael nadal who only lost like three games in his whole life like he
665
01:13:08,400 --> 01:13:16,000
won 112 games lost only three so that's a advantage and then you know like now i'm going to slovenia
666
01:13:16,000 --> 01:13:21,280
and it's not only because it's janja with it's like the whole slovenian team is so used to the
667
01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:27,680
their slovenian walls slovenian brands so it's like really really like beating the slovenian
668
01:13:27,680 --> 01:13:34,560
in slovenia this would be like something yeah like that's what i'm thinking about
669
01:13:35,200 --> 01:13:42,400
would be like cooler for the storytelling and yeah it would be like super interesting but like
670
01:13:42,400 --> 01:13:46,880
a lot of other sports have this like tennis again like wimbledon right now in london and
671
01:13:46,880 --> 01:13:53,840
in football slash soccer in europe you have like this hometown advantage with the hometown fans
672
01:13:55,520 --> 01:14:01,360
it's just very very different i don't know whether it's like the same in united states but yeah like
673
01:14:01,360 --> 01:14:07,040
you have this um nba like you have the best of seven you travel like three times four times back
674
01:14:07,040 --> 01:14:13,680
and forth that's just like if the whole town is like in one wipe and you know like there are
675
01:14:13,680 --> 01:14:19,760
people coming from the outside trying to win in our town i think that's a pretty different vibe to
676
01:14:19,760 --> 01:14:26,400
okay we all go together somewhere and have a good time which is fun and it's nice like it's it's
677
01:14:26,400 --> 01:14:31,040
cool to be in a in a world cup hosting town which is small as brixen or like some of the
678
01:14:31,040 --> 01:14:37,760
lead world cups like villars there's always climbers everywhere around and it's a nice atmosphere
679
01:14:37,760 --> 01:14:43,520
but yeah a little bit more of rivalry or like something like some spark would be would be too
680
01:14:43,520 --> 01:14:52,000
bad in my opinion i wonder if that would bring more money into climbing in a way
681
01:14:53,760 --> 01:15:02,560
i think more money into climbing is only possible if climbers have more person personality i think
682
01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:11,120
it's pretty it's it's speaking for our sport that the most well-known climber in the world is alex
683
01:15:11,120 --> 01:15:16,640
honnold of course he did something pretty crazy but like he's also i think he's on the spectrum
684
01:15:16,640 --> 01:15:25,200
right like i oh i have no idea anyway like he's he's he's super funny super like honest and super
685
01:15:25,200 --> 01:15:32,800
like out speaking yeah outspoken with his thoughts and it's super charismatic but a lot of these
686
01:15:33,520 --> 01:15:39,760
please tell me your favorite charismatic comp climber um i love stasa yeah stasa is good
687
01:15:39,760 --> 01:15:42,480
stasa is good okay tell me more
688
01:15:44,320 --> 01:15:51,440
who yeah who would you take to put into Oprah Oprah is not on air anymore i know that but
689
01:15:51,440 --> 01:15:59,120
who would you put on air on oprah's couch and they had like two minutes to describe why is climbing
690
01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:06,480
so cool or come climbing i don't know yeah it's hard it's on the one hand it's it's the format
691
01:16:06,480 --> 01:16:10,960
which is difficult to explain and on the other hand like which character could go out there
692
01:16:10,960 --> 01:16:18,560
and be like climbing is fucking dope and climbing competitions are even more dope so here sponsor me
693
01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:25,680
yeah i guess that is hard um i don't think i consume enough sports content to know
694
01:16:26,640 --> 01:16:31,680
who that person is for other sports though are there a lot of like famous other sports like
695
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:37,600
like sport like tom brady like all the nba players it's like michael jordan like created like
696
01:16:37,600 --> 01:16:45,120
a whole lifestyle bread lifestyle brand but like it's yeah but it sounds like you ask the question
697
01:16:45,120 --> 01:16:50,080
like to bring more money into climbing the thing is there's money money in climbing but not like
698
01:16:50,080 --> 01:16:56,320
into in competition climbing like the climbing gyms we are doing well we attract more and more
699
01:16:56,320 --> 01:17:02,480
people we get nice people we build nice communities we're trying to make life better for root sellers
700
01:17:02,480 --> 01:17:08,240
which is difficult we should try to get more diversity in we should try to improve diversity
701
01:17:08,240 --> 01:17:14,720
in climbing in general in comp climbing there's zero competition in climbing but we should try
702
01:17:14,720 --> 01:17:22,800
zero to none it's fucked up like especially for root setting um but like there's money in it like
703
01:17:22,800 --> 01:17:32,560
there are people millionaires and climbing due to the climbing gyms and um but there's not that kind
704
01:17:32,560 --> 01:17:40,000
of money what we think there could be in climbing competitions yes we don't have rolex or fred perry
705
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:47,920
as a sponsor of stuff like this yeah the sponsors i guess that might be part of it well stuff to
706
01:17:47,920 --> 01:17:54,960
think about um i think yeah that's that's everything i wanted to cover um anything else that we didn't
707
01:17:54,960 --> 01:18:01,760
get a chance to talk about that you wanted to bring up no i hope i didn't come uh i didn't
708
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:09,760
sound too negative about comp climbing or like the ifc it's just like that i'd like to use this like
709
01:18:09,760 --> 01:18:15,200
to show people that it's not like not everything is set in stone do what you want if you're open
710
01:18:15,200 --> 01:18:21,840
like to have suggestions like try them on their own like approach your gym as roots had us as a
711
01:18:21,840 --> 01:18:28,000
community come up with ideas like there's so much cool stuff you can do and just because it's streamed
712
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:33,920
online on youtube at the ifc it's not the only thing which is what's happening and climbing
713
01:18:33,920 --> 01:18:40,160
and especially tackling problems like diversity and gender problems in climbing and the
714
01:18:40,160 --> 01:18:45,360
creation of groups of climbing i'm pretty sure the ifc will not solve these problems we have to do it
715
01:18:45,360 --> 01:18:51,440
on our communal commercial area and especially like saving the outdoors or treating teaching
716
01:18:51,440 --> 01:18:58,240
people how to behave outside if people like to go outside i always say stay inside watch twitch play
717
01:18:58,240 --> 01:19:06,640
play computer games watch all the other sports it's okay it's also fun but like all this educational
718
01:19:06,640 --> 01:19:13,600
stuff and how we behave as a community where do we want to go as a community i think this happens
719
01:19:13,600 --> 01:19:20,400
with our climbing gyms we visit on a daily weekly basis and if there's anything we didn't talk about
720
01:19:20,400 --> 01:19:24,240
let me know i'm always happy to talk about climbing if it's more about route setting
721
01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:30,000
you want to know specific in specific like how route setting works feel free to hit me up or watch
722
01:19:30,000 --> 01:19:35,200
my channel yeah would you like to let everyone know where they can find you if they want to learn
723
01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:41,760
more about route setting holds just following your journey yeah my name is niklas wichmann but
724
01:19:41,760 --> 01:19:48,800
everyone calls me nicky and you can call me find me on instagram uh with schnicklas or beta route
725
01:19:48,800 --> 01:19:56,080
setting on youtube awesome all right well thank you again it was so great to talk to you yeah thank
726
01:19:56,080 --> 01:20:02,080
you for the invitation and uh have fun climbing and have fun with this podcast hopefully let me
727
01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:05,520
know what you think yeah because like with the podcast it's always a little bit difficult to
728
01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:12,320
receive feedback that's my um experience and if there's like anyone out there has like any
729
01:20:12,320 --> 01:20:18,080
thoughts comments concerns like hit it hit me on youtube or whatsoever like write into the comments
730
01:20:18,080 --> 01:20:24,800
i'll read usually everything and i'm thankful to get feedback and whether it's negative positive
731
01:20:24,800 --> 01:20:30,800
i can just learn with it and then we see what happens yeah same here cool thank you hi if you
732
01:20:30,800 --> 01:20:36,240
made it all the way to the end of the podcast here thank you so much for sticking with me and
733
01:20:36,240 --> 01:20:43,280
i hope you enjoyed i'm just starting out so please i welcome any constructive feedback or suggestions
734
01:20:43,280 --> 01:20:48,800
you can leave them in the comments below if you're watching on youtube or you can leave it through a
735
01:20:48,800 --> 01:20:54,080
review or you can reach out through my competition climbing discord server also linked in the
736
01:20:54,080 --> 01:21:13,840
description throughout all of the platforms thanks again for listening
