19: Eddie Fowke, Ex-IFSC Photographer
Eddie is an ex-IFSC photographer, who worked with them from 2014-2020. In this episode, we’ll get his thoughts on the ethics and purpose of photojournalism, hear about the chaos behind the scenes traveling around for world cups, and discuss ideas on how to get athletes better paid.
Timestamps
Timestamps of discussion topics
0:00 - Intro/The great photographer race
13:31 - Comp background + injury
16:29 - Starting photography
24:53 - Becoming a professional photographer
31:36 - IFSC freelance employment only
34:23 - Photography itself is a competitive sport
38:46 - Azerbaijan comp disaster
46:45 - Strange historical US comp scoring
50:30 - IFSC scoring, bringing back 4+ min
57:47 - The importance + difficulty of commentary
1:05:49 - Are there too many photographers?
1:15:20 - Demeaning athlete posing
1:17:55 - Behind the scenes portrait chaos
1:20:48 - Youth climber dating distractions...
1:23:34 - Climbers under RED-S pressure
1:32:19 - Photographing athletes in vulnerable moments
1:39:25 - Photojournalism + variety
1:41:55 - Mia Krampl Koper Incident
1:43:32 - “Losers” in sport
1:51:10 - Pro comp climbers after retirement
1:55:23 - Comparing climbing to disc golf
1:59:03 - Ways to fix athlete funding
2:06:22 - The fall of comp climbing?
2:21:35 - Discord Q: Could/should there be an alternative to IFSC?
2:23:36 - Olympics hatred
2:33:21 - Discord Q: Differences between comp climbing vs outdoor climbing photography
2:39:19 - Being more famous than Will Bosi
2:43:48 - Where to find Eddie
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going to get killed because someone doesn't want to lose face in this autocratic regime.
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Hey, can you take that down? I'm like, why? And it's like, it looks like they're doing the
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Hitler salute. Climbing has a poverty mentality. Everyone loves to tell you how bad they're doing.
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I think Olympics is one of the worst things that's ever happened to the sport.
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Welcome to another episode of the That's Not Real Climbing podcast. I'm your host,
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Jinni, and I'm excited to introduce my guest for today, Eddie Fowke. Eddie is an ex-IFSC
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photographer who worked with them from 2014 to 2020. In this episode, we'll get his thoughts on
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the ethics and purpose of photojournalism, hear about the chaos behind the scenes traveling around
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for World Cups, and discuss ideas on how to get athletes better paid. He's got a lot of crazy
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stories from his time working the World Cups, and he's got a lot of strong opinions about the IFSC
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and the Olympics. So, strap in for another long episode, and please make sure to thank him for
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all his time recording this with me. Hope you enjoy this episode with Eddie.
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We'll just start with a very simple question of how you're doing this morning.
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I'm doing very well. It's what I would consider an ungodly hour being 9 a.m., but then I'm just
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definitely not a morning person. Having worked climbing events for so long, I'm used to shooting
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into the evening and editing even later into the evening and getting up under duress when I have to.
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Even now, years after that, I do prefer a more relaxed start to the day and then a more solid
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finish to the day. I'm not one of these people that wakes up to watch the sun come over the
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mountain sort of thing. I'm quite happy that it's going to do its stuff without me, and I'd rather
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stay snuggled in bed, especially when it's cold. Yeah, that makes sense. I met a bunch of photographers
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in China and Salt Lake, and they were always scrambling right after the comp to get photos
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out as soon as possible. I think that was a similar experience for you. Yeah, I mean,
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that's the thing that people forget is that we take so many photos during an event, and then
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there's obviously going to be a lag while we're waiting for the photos to go onto our editing
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systems, and then we have to do a selection, and then we have to get the photos just polished.
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You know, normally we don't do much editing, or I don't, but just lightly polished, and then get
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them out to respective sponsors. If you've got a final that finishes at 10, you might finish all
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your editing of your fast edits for your clients by two or three. Oh, wow. Yeah. Normally, I'd do
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some at the venue and get them out by like 10, 30, 11, like just the absolute podium photos,
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one of each winner, and then go back to hotel or Airbnb wherever I'm staying,
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and punch a few others out. If it's the last day and there's an after party, normally I'll try and
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speed my process, so I could also go to the after party for a while and just unwind, but then after
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the after party, I'd still go back and do some editing. So yeah, normally photographers are a
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rough looking bunch the morning after a World Cup. Yeah, it seems like a stressful job. It's like
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really kind of a race to just get those out as soon as possible. Well, we're kind of like the
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polar opposite. We're the flip side of the route setters. The route setters have all the stress
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before the event. We have all this stress after, and people think, oh, it's as easy as just holding
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up a camera and click, click, click. And of course, it's not. Every photographer has their own style.
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They have their own things they're trying to capture. They have their own internal vision
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of how everything should look. And so you're working to achieve your goals to make sure you
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have photos of all the people you require for clients. And then you sort of rush into that
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after the round. And I've spoken before with podcasts and said, I'm normally there an hour
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before a round because I want to look at the routes. I'm probably the least capable climber
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that can read the hardest boulder problems because there's no way I can climb a World Cup boulder
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at this stage in my life. But I'd say seven to eight times out of 10, I can read the sequence
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because that's part of the job for knowing for positioning, for which way the climbers will be
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facing, for where they'll be jumping, how they'll be swinging and everything. Because you don't want
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to sort of stuff the first climber, especially in the final. You don't want the climber to start
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and you go, oh, I've just got their back. You want to be in the right position. So normally you go in
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before, catch a route setter if you can, but they're not always around at that time.
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And try and work out. It's a bit easier now, of course, when I started, I mean, qualifiers,
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there's a lot of people on the wall, semis, there's a lot of people on the wall. But when I started,
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you used to have male and woman finals at the same time. And if you had one facing one way and one
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facing the other, it was always a nightmare because you kind of had to accept that you're
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going to sacrifice good photos of one to get good photos of the other and hope that you're going to
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get something usable from the one that wasn't as good, but you never knew. And so it was,
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it's a lot easier now with one climber on the mat. So it just, it changes the dynamic a bit.
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But also there's the thing of you want the good angle, but one thing, so you were just at Salt
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Lake and you were in China and you were just seeing quite often, you get a clump of photographers.
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Yeah. And my goal was normally to be outside the clump because I wanted a point of difference.
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Right, exactly.
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Because if you have some of the big world cups, you'd have 25, 30 photographers, especially Munich
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back in the day, it used to be huge. And that all be in one place and you're like, okay, I know
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that's a good place, but what can I do which conveys the event, conveys the athlete, but in
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a different place. So you shuffle around and I don't know how long you've been following the
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sport, but of course there was a long time when I was the IFSC photographer and I had access to the
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mats that I'll be on the mats, I'll be in shooting quite hard angles because we were shooting
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quite hard angles because when you're on the mats, normally you can get close to the wall and
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shoot across the wall so that you get the climbers more into space rather than shooting in on the
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wall where they can be quite flat against the backdrop. It takes out sort of the three
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dimensionality of it a bit.
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Yeah, I mean, this is actually the first interview I've done since I went to any world
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cups in person. So now I have a little bit of a different perspective, which is interesting.
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I don't think I saw that many photographers at these events. I mean, a lot of videographers as
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well, but less than 10 for sure.
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Okay, that's interesting because back in the day, they were very limited on videographers
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because they had very strict media policies on anyone except the official video crew filming.
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So back in the day, it used to primarily be photographers, but of course, media was different
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than now so much as reels and this, that and the other. Back then, a lot more of it was literally
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just the stills. And of course, the stills are what's saleable for advertising or magazines or
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things like that. And yeah, I think certain events, like I know, for instance, back in the day,
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USA climbing used to limit the number of photographers that were there. Like shooting
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USA Nationals used to be one of trickier events to get accreditation for, even though I was
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well-known in the scene, purely because they didn't want anyone else effectively,
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commercially selling the photos. They just wanted to promote their own photographers, which,
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although I respect, it means that you only get one person's artistic vision of how the
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boulders should look or a couple, depending on how many photographers they have. And of course,
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China generally has less photographers in general. If you were to go to a World Cup in Japan,
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there's a sea of photographers and a lot of World Cups in Europe, there's a really strong core of
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photographers that are at just about every World Cup. So you have, you know, Bjorn and Sitsi and
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people like that who are always there and always around. And then, you know, Marco Kost and
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people like that, as well as the news outlets, the Getty photographers, the people like that.
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And so, you know, some of the old photos, especially of Munich, and I remember of the
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early days of Munich, there being, you know, in the early days of Munich, it was Marco,
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Marco Kost. And then it was sort of like Marco and myself. And then by like 2017, 18, there was
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50. It got to the stage where, you know, you used to say, oh, if you can't get a ticket to go to a
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World Cup, just apply for the media. Now, thankfully, they've cracked down on that. But it was
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almost obscene at one stage, like there was, you know, athletes, friends, just, and stuff who
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couldn't get tickets just applying. And you'd see them go, what are you doing here? Oh, media. And
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you're like, really? And have you ever held a camera? And they're like, no, okay. And you'd see
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people with like iPhones in the press pit. And you're like, what?
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Interesting. I mean, I guess that's kind of me because I'm not a photographer.
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So I kind of just stand there. Still trying to figure out what to do when I go. But
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it's tricky being a journalist. Like, you know, I'm very good friends with Natalie Berry from UK
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climbing. And she has the similar experience that when she's there, she almost feels superfluous.
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But she has to be there to, to take it all in. So she can write a firsthand account of the
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sensation, the feeling, the vibe of being there. Yeah, maybe I should talk to her about that.
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Yeah, should be a very good and you know, she's an incredibly accomplished journalist and
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has definitely, definitely forged a place for herself in the industry. And she's also
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one of a few that came from the competitive background. She was a World Cup lead climber
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herself back in the day and came up through juniors with Shona and people like that. And so,
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you know, but I did a lot of work with her pre last Olympics, just about athlete profiles and
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the sad and the other. Because, as everyone knew back in the day, I was very close with most of
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the athletes and therefore, when you're profiling an athlete, I can give quite salient points about
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them. And that's the thing that when you're a photographer, you're not going to be able to
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do that. When you're a photographer, there's sort of two schools of thought and sport photography,
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individual sport photography, let's say here, not team sport photography. Although it does apply to
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an extent to team sport photography. But the school of thought is that you are not seen,
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not heard, you are effectively part of the furniture. Or the other school of thought is that
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you are friends with the people and therefore they are comfortable with you in this space.
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And so I always subscribe to the second school because I think it's important that
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you're never a distraction. You're always just consistent, but that they're comfortable with you.
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You'll never, oh wait, there's someone in my space. You're always the comfortable, friendly,
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sort of the same as any other official. If they see a TD or a judge, generally speaking,
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they know who they are and they're like, oh, it's just Stanley or
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Hannes or someone like that. And I just, you know, and because we're, I wouldn't say smaller sport,
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but we're quite a tight knit sport, that was a good way to, a good way to exercise that.
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A good way to, good way to exist.
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Yeah, that makes sense. And going a little bit into your own background, you mentioned that Natalie
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was like one of the people who used to be in the comp scene personally as well, doing actual
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competing. I think you were also doing some like climbing competitions prior to photography, right?
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Yeah, absolutely. So the only difference was I was a generation or a couple of generations before,
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and I was nowhere near as good. So
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Well, you did say that you like qualified for some World Cups, right?
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Exactly. So I was a good domestic level competitor and back in New Zealand, they used to have a
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pretty stringent rule that you had to be top three ranked in the country to represent at World Cups.
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And so from sort of 99 till 2003, I was in position to go to the World Cups. But
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99, I didn't have enough money, 2000, I didn't, wasn't happy with my climbing, I felt like I needed
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more progression. 2001, I thought, okay, I'm on the cusp, I'm going to go to some World Cups next year.
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2002, I blew my knee up.
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And how did that happen? Was it through climbing?
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Stupid drop knee. So just looking at too many photos of Francois Le Grand and
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doing the big French drop knees that were all the rage back then. And I was training on a bouldering
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wall and twisted right into a move and had just all the weight driving down from my left knee and
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it just went, it was like everyone in the gym where I was heard it sounded like a gun going off and it
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was just my arm, posterior cruciate ligament exploded. And I sort of struggled on through 2003,
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but knew that I wasn't what I had been, I couldn't do a bunch of movements because of my knee.
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And at that stage, the surgeon said, only operate if it becomes unstable.
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So I didn't get it operated on because posterior cruciate ligament's a bit of a different injury
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to anterior cruciate ligament, of course. Anterior, you pretty much, you have to have the op, but
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posterior, they like not to operate if they can. And then, yeah, 2004, I dropped out of the sport
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because I couldn't climb as well as I used to. So I was pretty demoralized. So I actually moved to
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Australia for climbing beginning of 2004 and the first six months kind of went okay.
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But I was already on the decline and then I just hung my shoes up.
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And then I just hung my shoes up for about five years, got very heavily into photography in that
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time. Because amazing thing about being a climber is when you stop climbing, you get disposable income.
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I guess that's true. Because when you're a climber, you put all your money into the climbing.
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And so I got into photography, started doing a lot of motorsport photography.
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I wouldn't say traveled all over the world, but traveled up into Southeast Asia, went to the
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Singapore Grand Prix a couple of times, went to the Malaysian Grand Prix in Sepang a couple of times.
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Loved doing that. But it was just a hobby at that stage of life. I had a corporate job. I was
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wearing a suit. I was another bland middle management person and another huge Fortune 500
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company just pretending that I was important and effectively doing nothing. When you look back at
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it, you're like, wow, there's not much to it. But then 2009, I still followed climbing, which was
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hard to do back in the day because there's very little content around, especially competitions.
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It was, you know, and I've always been an avid fan of competitions. But there was very little
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content around competitions in the general media, in the English speaking media, at least.
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Well, you kind of have to create it then.
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Well, that's almost what happened. And I started climbing again in 2009 because one day I looked
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in the mirror and just went, I don't want to be this person. I'm going to be middle aged and fat.
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It has been so I sort of sucked it up and went, I'll never climb
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as hard again, but I'll still get pleasure. And sort of became part of a Sydney scene in Australia,
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bouldering outside there a lot. And everyone's like, oh, you had a knee injury. Why did you boulder?
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Roots isn't roots, he's on the knee. The answer is if you're 70 feet up a root and you get to a
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move you can't do, there's a whole lot of kerfuffle stripping the root back down. If you're on a boulder
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problem, you get to a move and you can't do, you just jump off and go to the next boulder problem.
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But yeah, so I sort of got back into the scene there, started taking photos, was lucky enough
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to take a lot of photos with Naleh Hukajjaval and Dave Graham, Ian Dorey, Paul Robinson, Daniel Woods,
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people like that, Carla Traversi, because they were all going to the Grampians a lot at that
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age. And people were going, oh, you should sell your photos. And I'm like, there's no money in
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climbing photography. Why would I do that? But then Roc and I bought a bunch of my photos. So
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apparently there was some money. And then 2013, my friend James Casse said, I'm doing four World
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Cups in Europe at the start of the season. Did I want to join? And I've never been to Europe at
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that stage. So I said, yeah, you know what, I do want to join. And I took two months off work, and
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flew across to Europe on a wing and a prayer. Basically, one of the Australian magazines,
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very good Australian magazine called Vertical Life, got me to go as their photographer so that I
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could take photos of them of James. And so I got media accreditations. And I turned up and there's
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virtually no media anyway. I was like, oh wow, this is, you know, back then, Heiko Wilhelm,
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back then, Heiko Wilhelm was the official, official IFSC photographer, even though he was
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the Austrian coach, because there was just no real other photographer going to the events.
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Which was great if you're Austrian and not great if you're from,
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let's not even say, another top rate country, because he always made a lot of effort to get
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a lot of good photos. But if you were further down the start list, chances are he was back
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with his own athletes by then. And yeah, so that was a sort of baptism by fire. And I got there and
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I just loved it. And if I look back, you know, the first World Cup I ever went to was, you know,
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in France, which is down sort of in the south. And it was a Boulder World Cup. And I hadn't met any
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of these famous climbers. And James already knew a lot of them, because he'd been overseas before.
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And so I'm in a French shop buying a SIM card, so that I could have data. And Alex Puccio walks in
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goes, Oh, are you Eddie? And I'm like, yeah, like just going on my goodness, it's Alex Puccio.
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And she's like, Oh, just having lunch with James and I didn't want to eat all my pizza. So here's
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half my pizza. And I'm just like, okay, I've never even met this famous climber who I'm a huge fanboy
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of. And she's giving me half a pizza. And then pretty quickly got to meet a lot of the climbers.
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It was culture shock, because they look so much bigger on screen. Oh, yeah, I totally relate to
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that. When you first meet World Cup climbers, you're like, Oh, my goodness, this is like
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a climbing competition for little people. This is a different division. And you know, growing up in
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New Zealand, which is not a climbing hotspot very much on the side of the world, the number one
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excuse when people can't do stuff is I'm not tall enough. And suddenly you're there and everyone's
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like mini me's, you know, I could stand in a crowd at a climbing World Cup and always have an
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uninterrupted view because at just over six foot tall, there was only I think Jan Hoyer and
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Jorg Verhoeven were taller than me, everyone else was quite often considerably shorter.
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And they also look a little bit scrawnier than I was expecting to like I thought they would have
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huge like bulging muscles. But no, no, there's some that do like, you know, people like Chloe,
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or things like that yarn back in the day. But they are very lean, very, very lean.
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And that was interesting, because yeah, first World Cup, and I was like, where do we stand?
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They're like, stand where you want. And I'm like, what? And so back then, it was four free standing
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boulders that they climbed. And there was a curtain at the back of each boulder. And you
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could actually stand in the athlete staging area and shoot out the curtain on the angle.
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And I remember standing there shooting woman's qualification. And when you've not been to the
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World Cup, you can be a fan of a lot of these people, but you've never met them, of course.
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And I'm standing there taking photos, and I step back in and you're the worms getting ready like
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right next to me. And I'm just like, you know, am I in a space? I don't want to say anything,
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but this is where the photographers are supposed to stand. And so it was,
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and so it was, it was kind of crazy. And it was a very small, tight knit climbing family back then.
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And yeah, so I did four World Cups and it was Mio Kitzbuehl, Innsbruck,
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and I can't even remember what the other one was. But that was the first year. And at the,
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sort of halfway through then I went climbing needs or competition climbing needs something,
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because these people, as I got to know them, they had fascinating stories.
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You know, you had Mina Markovic doing psychology at university and being an incredibly considered
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and well thought through person. You had Yulia Worm was just starting mid school at that stage
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to be a doctor. And you had, then the sort of died in the wool comp climbers like Yenna Kruder,
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who were like, I'm not studying anything. I just want to be really good at comps. And they all had
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very different and unique personalities. So I was like, something needs to happen here. So I just
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sort of went, well, I'll do a magazine. And I started my own magazine, The Circuit, and
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people bought it. And then the next year I went back and my plan was to take a six month career
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break, which was something we had the option of free work. They just seconded someone into your
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position and you stepped out. So I bought all my FAs, got everything ready. And two weeks before
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it was time to go, work turned around and made a whole lot of people, sadly not myself redundant.
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And then said, Oh, you can't go because we've just made the other people in your department
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redundant. And it's not going to happen. I said, well, actually it is. I've already got the FAs.
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So I quit my job and just went. And at that stage, I had to make money. I had savings, but I had to,
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and I treated it like, you know, if you go to university, you spend three years or four years
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or five years studying and you're paying X amount each year with the goal that when you come out the
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other side, you're going to be earning money, but you're effectively gambling on yourself because
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you're putting money into your education that you have to pay back eventually.
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And the outcome is at the end of a career. And I said, well, I'm doing the university of competition
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climbing. That's an interesting way of putting it.
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Never thought of it like that. I put some of my own money against it to begin with
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and set myself a goal that I had to be making money within three years, like a living wage
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within three years, or I was going to call it and go do something else. And the first couple of years
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were at times brutal, but probably 18 months, I was making money. And then I went to college.
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And for 18 months, I was making money, you know, making a living money, not just making some money.
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So it worked out. And at the end of 2014, the IFSC came to me and said, look, you know, you're at all
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these comps. Do you want to be our official photographer? Because we actually don't want
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the official photographer to be team affiliated anymore because it does create a conflict of
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interest, obviously. And I said, well, you know, what's in it for me? And what's in it for me wasn't
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much. But it was improved access. And that was enough to go, well, okay, the improved access
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actually gives me an angle that the other guys don't have. So yeah, I went and I actually stopped
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doing the magazine because I was just too busy. So I only ever did two issues of that. And then
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I got too busy, got myself a bunch of clients and just, you know, as you can see by the wall
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behind me did quite a few World Cups. And that's not even all. Well, that's pretty much all of them.
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But of course, some of those are season passes. So some of those count for a whole year.
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But then there's also a studio block passes, quiff passes, other events,
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Deport a Solo events, all sorts of different, you know, I used to keep a spreadsheet of all the World
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Cups I've attended and all the events I've attended. And I think it's about 150 international events I
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shot. So it was, yeah, it was, you know, a great way to get perspective on a sport and a great way to
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to become part of a community and really do your own little bit to build it up. Because
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I think I was, I don't want to blow my own trumpet, but I was kind of beloved by the athletes because
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if you were
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sort of amigasa, I was going to be taking photos of you. But if you were Katrin Van Selling down
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the other end of the field, I was going to be taking photos of her as well. So no matter where
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you were in the thing, I would put in the mahi and just do incredible hours to shoot all through the
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field. You know, I had disputes with the IFSC over that, because they wanted photos fast. And they're
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like, oh, we'll just do the top 20 in qualifying and then go and edit them. And I'm like, well,
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no, because the top 20, of course, are important. But if you're a climber from New Zealand or the
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US or wherever, and it's your first World Cup, and it might be your only World Cup, and afterwards,
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you go out and you won't get any photos and everyone's like, nah. Like, you know, it's easy
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for us when you live in rarefied air to think of, you know, it's only the top percent matter. But
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you've got to remember every single person at that World Cup is in the top percent of wherever they
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come from. You know, even if the Pakistani dude that's struggling to get up the speed wall,
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they've made it all the way from Pakistan to get up that speed wall. That's an achievement in the
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South and they deserve the recognition at some level. They deserve the same giving of time and
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treatment as, you know, a Yanya or a Tomoa. So I think that very quickly sort of got me on side of
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a lot of the climbers. And then I sort of became, because I'm a generation older than the climbers,
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I became sort of the unofficial driver-fixer-organiser for Team Other Guys. And that was a big part of it as well,
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because Team Other Guys was never a real team. Team Other Guys was the nickname we used to give
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to the people that were from federations that were too small to have a coordinated effort going to
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each World Cup. So it'd be the one or two climbers doing it on their own back from this country,
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that country. And, you know, for instance, it might be going to Miringen, I might have a car
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full of Swedes and Israelis and a couple of Australians or something. And I would have booked
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an Airbnb because it was easier to pool the resources. And a lot of the athletes are under 25.
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And so rental cars and accommodation and that can be more challenging.
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Yeah. And yeah, we'll get into those athletes' stories in a bit. But yeah, that was like quite a journey just for yourself.
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And so going back to just like when you signed on to IFSC, I didn't really realize this before,
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but a lot of people who do work for IFSC are just freelance and getting paid doing one-off gigs.
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Did you have like a regular contract with them or were you still like a freelance?
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So I was a contractor, but I was contract annually. So I was contracted to do all the World Cups for
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X amount of money. And it was a year to year rolling contract. But yeah, so the same as like
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Obsessed Media or people like that. So I was never part of the IFSC. I was always a contractor to the IFSC.
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And yeah, basically spent half of my life butting heads with them because although there's a lot of
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well-meaning people there, I think anytime you work with an organization, they can have a different
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perspective. And sometimes you need to actually sit there and have dialogue with them and go,
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well, you know, this is why this is important. This is why that's important. There was a number of
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comps that they wouldn't assign me to that I'd just show up to because for me, it felt important
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for the athletes to be there. And it was almost like an afterthought for the IFSC. And then they're
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like, oh, good, you're here. Well, can you take photos? It's like, well, that's what I'm here for.
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Well, like why weren't you contracted for those to begin with?
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They were just kind of oversights. Like, you know, when we had Youth Olympics in 2018,
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you'd think it would be a huge deal because it was our first Olympic appearance down in Buenos Aires.
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And they hired a videographer to do like a highlights video, but they didn't look at anyone
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doing photos. Same with World Games in 2017. And so for both of those, I got my own accreditation
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and then said, well, what are you doing about these comps? And they said, oh,
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we haven't thought of those. Can you come? And I'm like, yeah, I can come because I got my
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you know, I've already done all the legwork and got everything ready. And I'd just step in. And
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so in the end, they always used me, but I was doing those because I was contracted to do World
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Cups and World Champs and anything that wasn't a World Cup or World Champs, anything that was
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effectively run by a different body to the IFSC. For a long time, they sort of just assumed, well,
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I guess there'll be photographers there. And the problem with that is you might only have non
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climbing photographers and they might be good or they might be absolutely terrible. You don't know
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until you see it. And, you know, I've been lucky enough that most of those occasions
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worked with really good people like the other photographers on the ground.
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Because if you're a photographer, you tend to look at other people's work
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to go, OK, I'm going in to do this sport or whatever it is. Where do people normally stand?
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What's the net? You know, I wouldn't say we're copycats, but we take inspiration from each other
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because you don't want to go to a sport and learn the ropes and then look at your photos and go,
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oh, wow, they're all last shots. Yeah.
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And so I'd turn up at a lot of these events and a lot of the local photographers or the other
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sport photographers would be, oh, my goodness, you know, can you tell us what you know and how
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do we do these shots? Well, and stuff. And it's always very sharing and friendly in those
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environments because everyone wants a good end product. So being a photographer is incredibly
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competitive. It's like a sport in itself. But you all want each other to do OK. You want to be the
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best, but you want each other to do OK. And I'd had experience of that in motorsport and in
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athletics and things like that prior to climbing. So I was familiar with it, you know, back in the
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day shooting Speedway GP in Auckland, which is the motorbikes on dirt. And there was one photographer
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booth and all the accredited photographers were there. And I went and sat down, started chatting
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to them and I wasn't accredited. And then we're taking photos of the racers and about halfway
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through security turned up and said, oh, you don't have a vest on, you can't be here. And the other
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photographers all said, oh, no, he's one of us. He's just left his vest on the other side of the
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track. And next time, make sure you wear your vest. And so, you know, there was always a
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pretty friendly and dynamic around photographers. And same with things like Sydney Track,
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classic taking photos of athletics where you had people like a Safer pal and that running and,
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you know, people can, photographers can tell a hobbyist from a professional. And if you're a
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professional, they tend to help out even if you're a hobbyist, they'll help out, but they're probably
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a bit more limited in the time they'll give you. But it's, you know, it's a art in itself and a
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challenge in itself. And yeah, we had a lot of fun, I shouldn't use the real way because it's just me,
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but had a lot of fun, you know, learning the ropes and learning the dynamics and
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some places are territorial. That was always interesting. When I first went to World Cups,
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I almost got in a fight the first year I was in Slovenia, Log Dragon Mare, because the Slovenian
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security would only let local photographers into a good area, wouldn't let the foreign
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photographers into a good area. And I said, well, no, if I can go there, I can go there. And the guy
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said, well, no, you're not from Slovenia. And I said, I don't care where I'm from. This is for
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the international audience. And I went to go through and he blocked me and I didn't appreciate
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that and just went, you know, if you put your hand on me again, there's going to be issues. And the
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technical delegate at the time, legendary guy called Graham Alderson, he was just, if you ever
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want to interview anyone, Graham is the man. I mean, he was the judge at the first ever World Cup
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and was then technical delegate for years right up until the Olympics, basically. And has more
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experience as technical delegate than anyone. And he saw me squaring up this guy and ran over and
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was like, what are you doing? What are you doing? And I was like, he's not going to tell me that.
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And he's like, yeah, please don't start a fight. I'm like, okay.
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So did you manage to get in or?
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. They had a quiet word to the security guy and said, you know, your job is to
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stop non-people getting in, non-official people getting in, not official people getting in. And
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don't look at the ethnicity, look at the badge. So there was always things like that. The first
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couple of years, it was a bit more cowboy-esque in the first couple of years. And I was like,
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cowboy-esque in the first couple of years. It was really, you know, some of those early World Cups.
365
00:38:50,240 --> 00:38:55,440
Azerbaijan, we just passed the 10 year anniversary of, and I don't know if you saw Udo Neumann was
366
00:38:55,440 --> 00:39:01,280
doing a bunch of stories about, as was I, the most bonkers World Cup of all time. I've never
367
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:10,960
seen so much corruption. I've never seen just so much plain bonkersness. Because we all flew from
368
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:16,800
the World Cup in China straight to Azerbaijan, because you ain't going to fly back to Europe.
369
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:21,360
And so we got there on like the Tuesday and the World Cup was like, so they Sunday. And
370
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:27,040
they've never been a World Cup in, or they'd been a Speed World Cup, but there'd never been a
371
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:35,680
Boulder World Cup in Azerbaijan. And Azerbaijan, Baku is the capital and it means windy city. And
372
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:43,280
the venue was out on this peninsula over the Caspian Sea and was super windy. And so they
373
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:47,200
had a roof over the venue, but the roof was buckling from the wind. So they had to take the roof
374
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:52,160
down. So then you had, again, it was four freestanding boulders, but they were exposed to the sun.
375
00:39:53,840 --> 00:40:04,640
So you're in a desert, incredibly windy, climbing boulders in the sun. And they had just bought the
376
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:11,520
most expensive holds they could see online for the World Cup, because they had no idea what was what.
377
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:15,920
So when Jackie got off and the setting crew all got out there and opened up all these boxes,
378
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:24,480
it was like the entrepree kids alphabet set. Oh, really? Jungle gyms and stuff. So they were
379
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:29,760
sending out a desperate message to all the climbers that hadn't got there yet to fill any
380
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:34,720
spare space in their bags with holds from their gyms. And when they got to the World Cup, take them
381
00:40:34,720 --> 00:40:38,640
to the route setters so that the route setters could run in and change the climbs and put real
382
00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:44,400
holds on. So you had, you know, Killian Fishhuber flies over with half his luggage full of spare
383
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:51,680
holds from the odd wall in Innsbruck. And then they said to Jackie, you know, okay, it's really
384
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:57,440
important because we're in the wrecked sun. If you can sit the woman's boulders in the shade in the
385
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,600
morning and the men's boulders in the shade in the afternoon. So Jackie does just that. And then
386
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:06,880
they swap the order. So woman are in the sun in the afternoon and men are in the sun in the morning.
387
00:41:08,720 --> 00:41:16,720
And they had all the prize money, like $10,000 US dollars sitting in a case.
388
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:18,400
Cash.
389
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:23,120
Just cash. Except it did disappear and no one got paid.
390
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:24,240
Seriously.
391
00:41:24,240 --> 00:41:29,920
So it took the IFSC literal years to reclaim the money from them because they effectively tried to
392
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:35,280
do a run-over without paying anyone. And in the days leading up to the World Cup, all of us in
393
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:40,240
the hotel, they come knocking on our door every morning and they'd take us and put us in these
394
00:41:40,240 --> 00:41:47,520
complimentary tour buses to do complimentary tours. And they were all logoed up buses. And you're in
395
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:54,880
this bus going out to, we went out to see these petroglyphs about two hours out of Baku. And
396
00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:01,760
there's checkpoints on the road and you get to the checkpoint and you got minders and they call
397
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:08,560
the minister of sport or whatever and pass the phone to the police guy and the thing. And
398
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,800
minister of sports says, yes, he's allowed to go through and then pass the phone back and we can
399
00:42:12,800 --> 00:42:17,840
go through the next checkpoint. So it felt very sort of behind the iron curtain-esque.
400
00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:24,960
And we got out to these petroglyphs and it was beautiful. Looked like Waco tanks or
401
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:31,760
Rocklands or something. You just wanted to go climbing there. But we went to that to climb
402
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:36,160
there, of course, because it was petroglyphs. But what they didn't mention is that to make it
403
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:39,680
easy for tourists that already picked up all the rocks of petroglyphs and put them together.
404
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:47,040
And then coming back, we got back to the minibus. There's the driver, then myself, then Udo Neumann
405
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:55,360
in the front and then all the athletes. So Alex Puccio, Jan Hoyer, basically half the world's top
406
00:42:55,360 --> 00:43:04,080
climbers in the back of this minibus. And the driver was stinking drunk and he was falling
407
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:10,320
asleep at the wheel. And we'd be going along and I'd have to grab the wheel to keep us on the road
408
00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,800
because he'd start to veer off the road. And we were shouting at the minders, you know,
409
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:19,120
I can drive, let me drive. And they're like, oh no, you can't drive because if you drive,
410
00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:24,400
he loses face and that's very bad for him. And so he stopped the bus and poured a bottle of water
411
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:29,040
over his head to sober himself up and then just drove the rest of the way back in. And we're all
412
00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:36,400
like, we're all going to die. This is like most of the best climbers in the world and, you know,
413
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:40,080
best competition climbers at that stage in the world. And we're all like, we're going to get
414
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:46,000
killed because someone doesn't want to lose face in this autocratic regime. And so the whole thing
415
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:57,600
was crazy. And at the end, we went down to pay and they wanted to pay us back. And we were like,
416
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:06,960
they wanted 25 euros a day for the complimentary activities that they'd made us go on. And because
417
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:17,760
most of the teams pay by team credit card, the credit card surcharge was 18%. And a lot of the
418
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:21,040
teams said, well, we're not paying, that's a ripoff. And they said, well, we'll call the airport and
419
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:30,080
you won't leave the country. So they basically rents on the climbers to. Yeah. So you guys just
420
00:44:30,080 --> 00:44:36,560
paid it? Yeah, of course. What can you do? But yeah, so that was sort of like the wild west days
421
00:44:36,560 --> 00:44:44,000
of earlier world cups. And it was very different to how polished they are now. So we never went back
422
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:54,160
to Azerbaijan. Okay. That was a very, okay. So complete other story. So we're sitting on the
423
00:44:54,160 --> 00:45:00,800
plane to Azerbaijan. And if you've looked at my photos recently, you'll see a photo of James
424
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:05,280
Cassay standing there in a red t-shirt and everyone else being in black business suits. They're always
425
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:16,720
these hardened central Asian step businessmen coming out of China, back to Azerbaijan. And
426
00:45:18,400 --> 00:45:25,040
they don't see many blonde girls. So we were in quote unquote business class. We just got upgraded.
427
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:32,640
It was Shauna, Mina Leslie, Wajastic and myself. And we're sat in this line of seats and these guys
428
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:37,840
are coming up and they're just staring at the blonde girls, just like the on display in a zoo,
429
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:42,560
just walking up, standing in the aisle, just no shame and just staring at them. And then one of
430
00:45:42,560 --> 00:45:47,440
the guys effectively tries to buy me. He says, you know, I'll give you X amount of money. Come
431
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:56,080
live with me and be my wife. Oh, wow. That's so scary. So we were like, this is the most messed up
432
00:45:56,080 --> 00:46:06,000
crazy, like culture shock of all culture shocks. You know, totalitarian regime, policemen with a gun
433
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:13,440
on every corner of every street. Yeah. And so that was sort of like World Cups back in the day. You
434
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:19,600
had like Europe, which was like the center, which was really well organized and already really big
435
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:29,920
and professional. And then you had Asia, which I'd say was close, but lagging behind. You had the US
436
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:40,080
that was not even close, but felt that they were the best in the world. And then you had just these
437
00:46:40,080 --> 00:46:48,000
other randoms that were always like, what are we going to get now? So, and the US has come a
438
00:46:48,000 --> 00:46:52,880
hugely long way, but the thing with the US, so I don't mean to disrespect them as they wanted to
439
00:46:52,880 --> 00:46:58,720
do things their way, not the IFC way. So there was always sort of a clash of cultures when the World
440
00:46:58,720 --> 00:47:05,760
Cup got to US because like, well, no, this is how we do it. And it's like, sigh. Oh, what was the
441
00:47:05,760 --> 00:47:14,960
issue there? Just style, just everything. Just, it was just a cultural clash, the US had their way of
442
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:20,880
doing comps and we had ours. I don't know if you're around back in the day when the US, they didn't
443
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:28,000
have it at the World Cups, but they had their own scoring system that was really obscure and
444
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:34,720
opaque and like no one could figure it out. And I don't know what that system is. What was it?
445
00:47:34,720 --> 00:47:41,920
Back in the early 40s, they had this thing where you got points per hold and then points for the
446
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:47,200
top. But then if anyone else did the boulder problem, those points divided and it was, you
447
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:53,040
needed a maths degree or a magician degree just to do the comps. And at one stage, because I was
448
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:58,560
doing the magazine and the social media and I wrote an article basically criticising their system,
449
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:05,840
saying, look, this is just, you know, to me, the simpler the system, the better, because you want,
450
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:10,160
as a spectator, you don't want to have to be doing calculations on who won. You want to
451
00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:16,240
okay, you got three tops in the zone. Okay, Stas, you got three tops, but no zone. Okay, you won.
452
00:48:18,720 --> 00:48:25,760
But I wrote an article back in 2015, I guess it was, and I basically criticised the US scoring
453
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:33,600
system and USA climbing banned me from taking photos of comps in the US until I had like a long
454
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,760
meeting with women and had to apologise. And, you know, I didn't want to get banned. I was just
455
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:43,280
saying I didn't agree with your system. And I have a lot of respect for what those guys did for the
456
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:53,760
sport. But I do think they fixated on a system that wasn't, wasn't preparing their athletes for
457
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:58,880
international competition. Because when you do a really crazy system, and you'd see it, then
458
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:04,560
that turn up to World Cups, and they'll do badly because they weren't thinking, I just need to get
459
00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:09,360
the zone. Okay, I just need to get the top. Okay, you know, they, there's tactics that come into a
460
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:15,760
World Cup. And those tactics were different under their system to. So when the World Cups came to
461
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:20,880
the US, it would have to be the US system with like the no, no, when the World Cups came, they
462
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:27,520
were always the World Cup system. Because, you know, none of us are good enough at math to do the
463
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:38,160
American system. So it was always but um, it was always the, the IFSC system, which in itself has
464
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:44,480
changed, obviously, massively over the last decade and a bit 15 years, whatever. You know, we used
465
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:51,040
to have four plus, then we went to four flat, we used to have tops, meaning everything in zones,
466
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:56,160
not and then zones got more important. You know, now they have the Olympic system, and then they
467
00:49:56,160 --> 00:50:04,880
have the Olympic system with numbers, there's all sorts of modifications to the scoring and to the
468
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:09,920
the actual format that have happened over 15 years. And I don't agree with all of them,
469
00:50:09,920 --> 00:50:14,240
I agree with some of them. But you know, I see what they're trying to do to,
470
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,160
to speed up the sport and make it more
471
00:50:18,160 --> 00:50:24,480
understandable to a casual viewer, which I think is important. But I think the flip side is you
472
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:28,320
need to respect the intelligence of viewers and that if you explain something to them,
473
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:29,440
they will figure it out.
474
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:35,680
Do you think like the current system is pretty decent then in terms of understanding and simplicity?
475
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:44,560
Yeah, for the most part, I have some issues around tops and zones. But that's not the
476
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:49,440
problem. I have some issues around tops and zones. But that's just a personal thing.
477
00:50:51,360 --> 00:51:00,640
In that, so say you have a final, and two of the boulders are doable and two of the boulders
478
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:08,720
are really crazy, not really doable. And so say you had someone comes out and flashes the
479
00:51:08,720 --> 00:51:15,360
two doable boulders, but then it's a desperate dino on the other two and they don't get zoned.
480
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:20,480
And then you get someone that comes out and they take 10 attempts to get to the top on the other
481
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:25,520
on the two boulders, but they're good at jumping. So they fluke his own on the other one. And
482
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:37,600
suddenly they win because, but because of one move, you know, it's, I prefer that I preferred it when
483
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:45,280
they went, they used to score number of tops attempt to top, then zones and attempts to zone
484
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:51,760
as a tiebreaker, not number of tops and number of zones and attempts then. And for me, that was the
485
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:58,640
system I preferred, but that's just me. I was also always have been always will be a huge advocate of
486
00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:09,360
four plus. I much prefer four plus to four minutes because I hate seeing athletes walk off the clock
487
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:16,480
with time on the clock, walk off the mats with time on the clock. There used to be something about that
488
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:25,040
a four plus round because four plus basically meant that you had four minutes to do the boulder,
489
00:52:25,040 --> 00:52:29,600
but if you were off the ground when your four minutes finished, your attempt only ended when
490
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:36,240
you hit the ground. Yeah, I thought that was fun. It was fantastic because you had this tactic
491
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:41,680
about running the clock down, trying to like save energy and jumping on with like 10 seconds to go.
492
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:46,240
Yeah. And then like, you know, there was a couple of cases that were pretty funny, like
493
00:52:46,800 --> 00:52:52,480
Sekuru Hori and Grindelwald in 2014 being perched at the top of a boulder for about five minutes,
494
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:58,080
just trying to get across and trying to get the match. But it was just pure drama because he was
495
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:03,040
wedged in the corner and this finish was just out of reach for his height and he's trying to get the
496
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:12,400
body position. You know, it wasn't boring. It was thrilling. And you had Melissa Laniv in the World
497
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:18,880
Cup that was Petra's only World Cup win. And she got into this dihedral and was just camped there
498
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:25,200
trying to get something back one move before the top and the crowd, you know, all three of us were
499
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:32,880
going wild. And then she fell still going for the top. And so that was like amazing. You had,
500
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:40,080
I've got this great photo of Margot Hayes at this comp in the US, the second hold on the comp was
501
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:45,520
this huge volume and Margot jumped on and then just lay over the volume like a ragdoll and just
502
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:50,160
lay right on her stomach and just lay there for about four minutes recovering. But it was just,
503
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:58,880
it was theatre. It was so exciting to watch. And yeah, so I miss that format because there's,
504
00:53:58,880 --> 00:54:03,040
and I know now the flip side is you got buzzer beaters like, you know, Simon Lorenz a couple
505
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:09,600
of years ago in Brixton or wherever it was just beating the buzzer. Lots of good buzzers. So there
506
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:16,560
is a counter argument and I respect the counter argument, but for me, I preferred the four plus
507
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:26,240
because it really gave it a sense of like drama and last attempt means all. And it was a lot of
508
00:54:26,240 --> 00:54:31,120
fun, but I, you know, I do understand why they moved it for, they didn't, you know, if you're
509
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:37,840
going to be on Eurosport, you don't, you want roughly to be able to time your final. You don't
510
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:42,880
want half the climbers spending eight minutes on a final problem because it's going to skew your
511
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:47,360
whole scheduling. Of course the flip side is if you have a final like Salt Lake where everyone's
512
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:51,520
flashing, then it skews the scheduling the other way because it gets too short. I guess that kind
513
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:56,880
of reminds me of how people say that cricket is like a really long game. I've never watched it,
514
00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:02,560
but I just, I've heard people talk about how it can go on for days or something like that. Yeah.
515
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:07,680
A test match is five days. Yes. Yeah. I don't really know how that works for broadcast TV,
516
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:15,440
but alcohol. You, you sit there with a beer in your hand and you have it on in the background
517
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:23,040
and it's not, you know, even odd equivolated to baseball in the U S like baseball is a very slow
518
00:55:23,040 --> 00:55:29,680
game to watch. Never watch it. So, yeah. So I mean, but some sports just aren't fast sports to watch.
519
00:55:30,720 --> 00:55:36,720
You know, I enjoy watching tour de France, you know, absolutely love watching tour de France,
520
00:55:36,720 --> 00:55:41,840
but guess what? Tour de France is slow to watch cause they're in the saddle six hours every day.
521
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:46,400
But if you're watching with a good commentator, it's still fascinating cause you,
522
00:55:46,400 --> 00:55:53,920
and this is where commentary is king. Cause a good commentator can carry over the slow things.
523
00:55:56,560 --> 00:56:01,520
But yeah, I absolutely love some sports that are actually very slow to watch. You know,
524
00:56:01,520 --> 00:56:07,040
I'll sit down and watch a six hour motor race or a 24 hour motor race. Not the whole thing. I will
525
00:56:07,040 --> 00:56:10,640
go to sleep in the middle, but I'll have it on the background all day while I'm up doing something
526
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:18,640
and just follow what happens. It's not every sport needs to be rushed. And I think the difference
527
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:24,800
between four and four plus was so small that they could have quite comfortably done four plus,
528
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:28,400
you know, a golf tournament. Well, how long is it golf tournament? Three days.
529
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:34,240
You don't know cause you don't watch golf. Yeah, I don't watch it. You know, and the thing is,
530
00:56:34,240 --> 00:56:40,320
if you got good, how long is an American football game? Four hours and about two minutes of action.
531
00:56:41,520 --> 00:56:47,040
There's something about football that I do enjoy. I can't really describe why.
532
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:52,720
I love watching football, but I love watching football because it's like,
533
00:56:52,720 --> 00:57:02,400
it's just the distilled essence of American sport. It's all bravado and heroism and tactics. And
534
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:13,360
it's kind of, you get these huge behemoths who, whole existence is to run out in the field, crash
535
00:57:13,360 --> 00:57:18,320
into each other and then waddle off the field slightly slower and rest for 10 minutes. Like
536
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:29,040
it's actually a bonkers sport. So it's like, you get, it's a ball sport where so many people's job
537
00:57:29,040 --> 00:57:35,360
is to never even touch the ball. You know, compare that to soccer or rugby or something like that.
538
00:57:36,560 --> 00:57:40,560
It'd be like having climbing where half the climbers never touched the climb.
539
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:45,440
It doesn't make sense. It's like, you know, it's like, you know,
540
00:57:45,440 --> 00:57:53,360
it's like, you know, it's like, so, but there is a spectacle to it that makes it attractive
541
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:57,040
and the commentary makes it attractive. You know, commentary, as I said, is King because,
542
00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:02,480
and this is where Charlie was brilliant because he was a student of commentary. He had his podcast
543
00:58:02,480 --> 00:58:10,240
where he would talk to other commentators and follow their, their advice and stuff. And you know,
544
00:58:10,800 --> 00:58:15,200
Matt is great at what he does, but he's never going to be the commentator for me
545
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:19,280
because he's the commentator for the everyman and because of my experience in the sport,
546
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:24,080
I'll never be the everyman. So I much prefer the color commentators because they tend to have the
547
00:58:24,080 --> 00:58:28,960
insight and that's what I'm after. I tend to find that people kind of just prefer the commentator
548
00:58:28,960 --> 00:58:36,160
that they started watching competitions in. So like people who started watching during Charlie's era
549
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:40,400
prefer his commentary and then people who started watching during Matt's era prefer his commentary.
550
00:58:40,400 --> 00:58:47,200
So you can only say that about the last couple of commentators. Right, yeah. Some of the ones before
551
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:53,280
that, lovely guys, but guys like Johnny Bryan who was basically a professional snooker commentator
552
00:58:55,680 --> 00:59:02,720
was a challenging listener. He had no real interest in climbing, never learned the terminology,
553
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:12,960
never, you know, he could commentate anything as a professional commentator, but zero insight,
554
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:23,440
zero perspective, zero sort of relaying the actual difficulty. Well, so I kind of got a bit of a taste
555
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:34,080
of that because Matt had me co-commentate for women's semis in China and it didn't, it was,
556
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:39,200
I mean, I never, my goal was never to do commentary. Like I always knew it would be really
557
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:48,080
difficult, but I was like, I can't say no to an opportunity. I wouldn't say it went super well,
558
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:52,480
but I got some nice messages from people who listened to the podcast, which was really nice.
559
00:59:52,480 --> 00:59:59,040
I enjoyed it. I thought it was good. It's, as I said, I tend to prefer the color commentators,
560
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:08,080
which is nothing against Matt. Matt is holding it down for the casual listener. I, on the other hand,
561
01:00:08,080 --> 01:00:14,640
I'm much more interested for the other people. Yeah, I do agree that who you come in with and
562
01:00:14,640 --> 01:00:22,800
are familiar with as a commentator does make a big difference. For myself, I'm used to Matt as being
563
01:00:22,800 --> 01:00:32,320
the Epic TV guy. I always loved that. And I find he's a bit too cherry-chappy for me, but that's just,
564
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:40,720
everyone has their own take. And I've done some commentary and commentary is hard. Sure is.
565
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:47,280
Yes. I used to go to Doc Masters in the Netherlands, which is a fantastic comp.
566
01:00:47,280 --> 01:00:53,120
And they had me as their commentator. And it's funny because when they first contacted me, I
567
01:00:53,120 --> 01:00:56,720
thought, oh, you know, go take photos. Fine. They're like, no, we want you to commentate.
568
01:00:56,720 --> 01:01:04,320
Because I'd heard some unofficial commentary I'd done at an event another time. And they wanted me
569
01:01:04,320 --> 01:01:11,360
on. And it's funny because you get half of people love you, the other half hate you. And it's much
570
01:01:11,360 --> 01:01:20,960
more emotionally draining than being a photographer because the immediate feedback you get is pretty
571
01:01:21,680 --> 01:01:27,360
direct and sometimes brutal. And like my accent or people thought I was too chummy about the
572
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:32,480
athletes or people thought I was too hard on other athletes because I give them a wind up. And
573
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:37,760
you know, everyone's going to have their take. And in different cultures, commentary is different.
574
01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:48,480
So the commentary I give as a Kiwi is going to be probably less, I wouldn't say less respectful
575
01:01:48,480 --> 01:01:52,480
because you've got a massive amount of respect for them, but probably a little bit more honest
576
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:58,080
and cutting than say an American commentator who is trying to paint everyone in a very positive light.
577
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:03,360
You know, if I know someone's climbing behind their level or is stuffed because I can see that their
578
01:02:03,360 --> 01:02:07,200
shoulders are blowing and they're in trouble, I'm going to say, oh, I don't think they're going to
579
01:02:07,200 --> 01:02:10,960
get this problem because look at their shoulders, they're gone. You know, and people are like, oh,
580
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:14,400
that's not a very nice thing to say. And it's like, well, that's just an observation as a
581
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:24,640
commentator, you know. But that all came about from a very surreal experience. So years ago,
582
01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:30,800
Munich, definitely one of the biggest World Cups, I think the biggest World Cups ever were in Munich.
583
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:43,280
And they used to at Boulder-Valton, Munich, they used to have a simulation semi a few days before.
584
01:02:43,280 --> 01:02:47,520
And so a lot of the World Cup climbers had turned up and it was like an unofficial World Cup almost.
585
01:02:47,520 --> 01:02:52,880
It was a lot of fun. And one year I was there, I didn't feel like climbing, but I was there.
586
01:02:52,880 --> 01:03:00,080
And one year I was there, I didn't feel like taking photos. So I got my phone out and started
587
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:08,000
videoing and was just doing a one-man broadcast on Facebook Live and just talking shit and filming
588
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:14,400
this thing. And this is back when Facebook was king of the platforms and they used to have
589
01:03:14,400 --> 01:03:19,120
Facebook recommended and everything. And I looked down, there's 150,000 people watching.
590
01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:27,680
Wow. Because it had gone on the Facebook recommended page and just people from all over who had no idea
591
01:03:27,680 --> 01:03:33,120
about climbing were clicking on and watching. And here's me just shit talking basically,
592
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:40,000
just thinking there's 20 people watching and it was all mates. And then I looked at it's like 150,000.
593
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:47,600
Did you say anything you shouldn't have said? Oh, many things. But it was all meant good
594
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:53,920
naturedly. It was all in jest. It was a lighthearted event. But it was just funny that after that I got
595
01:03:53,920 --> 01:03:58,960
contacted by people that wanted me to commentate because I actually liked the style. And I was like,
596
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:08,240
okay, I'll take that. And because I've been around a long time, I knew the athletes well,
597
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:14,320
so I could sort of do the colour side as well because I knew what was going on. I don't know
598
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:18,640
how long you've been watching, whether it was before your time or not. But Charlie used to
599
01:04:18,640 --> 01:04:27,440
get me to do the post-event interviews. So now they get the assistant, the colour commentator,
600
01:04:27,440 --> 01:04:32,800
to run down and do them. But back in the day, Charlie wasn't really able to leave for Booth.
601
01:04:33,680 --> 01:04:40,960
And he didn't want to leave the colour commentator in the Booth to talk on their own for five minutes
602
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:45,680
where I went to wrangle the athletes. And I was always at the front because I'm taking photos,
603
01:04:45,680 --> 01:04:50,400
and then I'm standing around waiting for the podium. So the idea was, well, okay, pass me the
604
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:56,080
mic and I'll do the questions. And even that, you do the questions and you think that came
605
01:04:56,080 --> 01:05:00,320
came off really well. And Charlie's like that came off really well. Then you read online. And so I was
606
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:09,280
like, what was that guy asking? What an idiot. People are brutal. Yeah, yeah. People have zero
607
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:17,760
empathy if they think that the person is not going to have any form of rejoinder. And sadly,
608
01:05:17,760 --> 01:05:22,160
I sometimes had a form of rejoinder because I'd definitely hit people up if I knew who they were
609
01:05:22,160 --> 01:05:31,520
and say, dude, what the hell? You try it. It's not that easy. Yeah. But it was, yeah, look,
610
01:05:32,320 --> 01:05:38,160
it was a blast. What can you say? The whole thing. I spent nearly a decade in the sport
611
01:05:38,160 --> 01:05:47,360
until COVID killed it. And it was a blast. Yeah. So going back to photography, since I still had a
612
01:05:47,360 --> 01:05:55,280
couple of questions about that. I think you had also mentioned that you think there are
613
01:05:55,280 --> 01:06:01,440
too many photographers nowadays at comps. How many do you think is too many? And like,
614
01:06:01,440 --> 01:06:07,680
what were some of the issues that come with that? Well, that's a tricky one to answer without
615
01:06:07,680 --> 01:06:14,640
offending people. But to be honest, I think if the answer is correct, that people shouldn't be
616
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:23,440
offended. See, the challenge here is that I think photographers need to be able to earn a living
617
01:06:23,440 --> 01:06:29,840
taking photos. That's why you're a photographer. If you have too many people taking photos,
618
01:06:29,840 --> 01:06:37,680
you split the pie into too many pieces. And therefore, people can't actually survive doing
619
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:42,400
it. So you end up crushing the full-time photographers and being left with a bunch of hobbyists.
620
01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:53,280
So I think that they have to limit it to the extent that the professionals can be professional.
621
01:06:53,280 --> 01:07:02,560
If they have, say at any given World Cup, say there's $20,000, 20,000 euros, whatever,
622
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:10,240
and photographic sales to be made, and then they put 50 photographers in, then if they're all trying
623
01:07:10,240 --> 01:07:14,880
to sell their photos, that devalues all the photos, because any given photographer might be getting
624
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:21,200
$500. But if you have half a dozen photographers, then that half a dozen photographers can make
625
01:07:21,200 --> 01:07:31,840
enough money that they can go to the next event and keep taking photos. For me, speaking outside
626
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:38,960
of the box a bit here, but I'd almost like to see two photography areas, which I think would work
627
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:44,720
really well, which would be for your pros and your hobbyists. And you could actually sell a hobbyist
628
01:07:44,720 --> 01:07:52,640
photographer ticket with the condition that none of their photos get used for commercial purposes.
629
01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:56,880
But if they're an enthusiastic photographer, because a lot of people love taking photos or climbing,
630
01:07:57,600 --> 01:08:01,920
it is a passion of theirs. And you say, well, look, you're welcome to, as long as you sign this
631
01:08:01,920 --> 01:08:06,480
saying that you're not going to sell your photos, you're welcome to. But if you're not going to sell
632
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:11,840
as long as you sign this saying that you're not going to sell them, and you're going to have this
633
01:08:11,840 --> 01:08:16,160
area, which isn't quite as good as the main photographer's area, but you'll have, because
634
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:21,440
as I said, for a while you had every Tom, Dick and Harry was using a press pass just to get into the
635
01:08:21,440 --> 01:08:33,040
cops. Yeah, that seems a bit extreme. And that was sort of like the overkill of it. Whereas some
636
01:08:33,040 --> 01:08:37,040
World Cups you go to, there's still very few photographers. So I don't think you want to
637
01:08:37,040 --> 01:08:44,880
overregulate and push out the photographers where you want them. So it's a case of balancing. And
638
01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:52,880
I would say, yeah, if you had at the bigger events like Innsbruck or
639
01:08:52,880 --> 01:09:01,280
Chamonix or wherever, if you had two photographer areas and you had your established pros,
640
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:08,800
and then you had a hobbyist and those hobbyists might want to be pros, but so it gives them a
641
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:15,840
way to learn the trade. Because you don't want to be elitist and just cut people off, but you want to
642
01:09:15,840 --> 01:09:23,840
you don't also want to screw your professionals. So it's
643
01:09:25,200 --> 01:09:30,080
one of those things, as I said, photography is competitive. We're all trying to get pieces of
644
01:09:30,080 --> 01:09:37,280
the same pie and the pie generally isn't that big. And if you get more people trying to get pieces of
645
01:09:37,280 --> 01:09:40,800
that pie, then the amount of pie goes down for everyone. Okay.
646
01:09:40,800 --> 01:09:47,760
Because there's always going to be that person or those people that undermine it because they're
647
01:09:48,960 --> 01:09:55,200
trying to get into the industry. So I think, well, if I lower my price or give away photos even
648
01:09:56,080 --> 01:10:04,160
just to get the prestige, then I'll get in. But they're actually damaging the sport because what
649
01:10:04,160 --> 01:10:08,160
they're doing is they're devaluing the people that set a value on their work.
650
01:10:08,720 --> 01:10:15,600
Yeah, that makes sense. And well, so you got like some special privileges as like the official IFC
651
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:22,960
photographer, because, for example, like for lead, you get to shoot from other areas of the wall or
652
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:27,600
like the top of the wall or something like that. Never really the top of the wall.
653
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:34,400
Not since the old days in Brionson, that used to be wonderful. Now, Jan Vert uses a remote camera
654
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:38,320
occasionally, which is good. I used to do that occasionally in speed, but that was the only time.
655
01:10:39,840 --> 01:10:44,240
Used to shoot speed occasionally from the top. The big advantage more than anything was in the
656
01:10:44,240 --> 01:10:52,480
bouldering. We used to have a rule that as long as I was two problems away from the wall, I would
657
01:10:52,480 --> 01:11:00,000
be on the mats. So normally I'd be, you'd have your videographer crew, your broadcast crew would be on
658
01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:04,720
the mats and I'd be next to them on one side of the other, moving back and forth with them,
659
01:11:04,720 --> 01:11:09,920
getting the angles because the videographer guys are normally getting similar angles to what I'm
660
01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:15,680
wanting to be shooting. Or if they saw me on the other side, they'd realize that I'm not shooting
661
01:11:15,680 --> 01:11:22,720
getting similar angles to what I'm wanting to be shooting. Or if they saw me on the other side,
662
01:11:22,720 --> 01:11:30,320
they'd realize I had a better angle and come and join me. So yeah, that was a thing where,
663
01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:38,080
yeah, it was basically mat access because for a lot of World Cups back in the early days,
664
01:11:38,080 --> 01:11:44,080
you couldn't shoot from beside the mats because the way a lot of the walls were constructed,
665
01:11:44,080 --> 01:11:49,920
they might have walls on either side of the wall. So automatically you're shooting in on the wall,
666
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:55,440
which is flattening the climbers. And so the advantage of having that access, as I said,
667
01:11:55,440 --> 01:12:01,360
in the early days, you could shoot from anywhere and it was a free for all. But as it got more
668
01:12:01,360 --> 01:12:10,640
structured, then you'd get around on the mats. Because then you can see the degree of overhang,
669
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:15,200
you can see how poor the slopers are and things like that. When you're shooting across the side
670
01:12:15,200 --> 01:12:18,240
or something, because you got a profile, you're like, wow, that slope is really bad. You're
671
01:12:18,240 --> 01:12:21,360
shooting it from the back and you see their hand just like that, you're like, well, that could be
672
01:12:21,360 --> 01:12:30,320
a jug for all I can see. So that was the big advantage there was just having that. And plus,
673
01:12:30,320 --> 01:12:36,480
I had to support my drinking game guys down in Texas. So shout out to them. There was a bunch of
674
01:12:36,480 --> 01:12:40,160
climbers that had a drinking game that whenever I appeared on the live stream, they had to have a
675
01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:45,680
shot. And once I found out that game was going, I tried to make sure I appeared in the edge of
676
01:12:45,680 --> 01:12:51,760
shot as often as possible. Oh my gosh. I feel like I would not want to appear on the live stream.
677
01:12:53,440 --> 01:12:59,600
It wasn't always flattering. I don't have the best physique. I'm not a young trim climber like a lot
678
01:12:59,600 --> 01:13:05,440
of these kids are. I'm a 50 year old man. So I was in my 40s then and I looked like a dude in my 40s.
679
01:13:05,440 --> 01:13:10,640
And that was, sometimes you'd see yourself walk past the back of shot. You'd be like, oh my goodness,
680
01:13:10,640 --> 01:13:22,720
I need to go to a gym. But I'm pretty comfortable being in front of a crowd because they're not
681
01:13:22,720 --> 01:13:28,480
looking at me. They're looking at the climber. So it used to sometimes be surreal when you're
682
01:13:28,480 --> 01:13:34,800
at a big event, a veil back in the day when you'd have several thousand people in the meadow watching
683
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:39,200
the climbing and you're up front taking photos and you look sideways and you're like, wow,
684
01:13:39,200 --> 01:13:49,200
that's a whole lot of people. You know, 2019 veil, they wanted everyone to do this
685
01:13:52,720 --> 01:14:00,480
Eiffel Tower symbol for, we were trying to get in the Olympics for 2024. And their proposal was
686
01:14:00,480 --> 01:14:05,520
going before the IOC and the IFSC came up to me and said, can you get photos of people doing this
687
01:14:05,520 --> 01:14:11,360
to look like the Eiffel Tower? And I was like, wow, that sounds kind of lame and terrible. But,
688
01:14:12,560 --> 01:14:19,520
and I got photos of some of the athletes doing it. It just looked embarrassing and uncomfortable.
689
01:14:20,080 --> 01:14:23,600
And I went back to the IFSC and I said, look, I know there's a break in finals
690
01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:29,920
between the first two and the last two problems because there's always a break for adverts.
691
01:14:29,920 --> 01:14:34,720
I said, can I use that to get on stage and get the crowd to do the symbol and I'll get
692
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:44,960
3000, 4000 people doing it, not just one or two awkward looking embarrassed climbers.
693
01:14:46,000 --> 01:14:50,560
And they were like, well, you can do it, but who's going to announce it? And I was like,
694
01:14:50,560 --> 01:14:53,040
well, I'll announce it. I'll get up and just tell them what I want to do. And they're like,
695
01:14:53,040 --> 01:14:56,880
you can't do that. I'm like, why not? I'm just picking up a mic and saying, do this.
696
01:14:56,880 --> 01:15:02,880
And if you watch back that footage of Vail 2019 in the men's final, I get up halfway through and
697
01:15:02,880 --> 01:15:08,160
take the mic off the EMC and say, okay, I want everyone to do this. And we ended up with probably
698
01:15:08,160 --> 01:15:12,880
close to 4000 people and it just looks like every single person's doing it. And they're just
699
01:15:12,880 --> 01:15:19,520
receding into the distance and they're all doing the, and that was a huge kick. You know, that was,
700
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:25,520
yeah, I'll try to link that in the description so people can see. I feel like you're talking
701
01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:31,440
about the athletes looking awkward doing it kind of reminds me of, sometimes they try to get the
702
01:15:31,440 --> 01:15:36,480
athletes to do like short videos where they're doing like a pose or something. So demeaning.
703
01:15:36,960 --> 01:15:42,800
I mean, I think it's kind of fun. I want, I just wish they weren't as like embarrassed to do it
704
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:47,520
because I feel like it could be good. I think the thing is when they've started doing it,
705
01:15:47,520 --> 01:15:52,640
the athletes didn't really know what they were going to be used for or done. And so you ended
706
01:15:52,640 --> 01:15:57,040
up with like a Kia with a banana on her head for a season or something. You know, you end up with
707
01:15:57,040 --> 01:16:00,960
some stupid ones in the early days because the athletes were just playing around. They had no
708
01:16:00,960 --> 01:16:05,680
concept of what they were being asked to do. They thought it was just like, now do something funny
709
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:09,920
for us. And then they're like, oh my goodness, that's for the whole season. Now I think the
710
01:16:09,920 --> 01:16:17,600
athletes are more familiar with, but the whole walk out and go, and the camera is just kind of
711
01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:21,520
cheesy and a bit, I don't know, for me, it's like, I'd rather just a nice photo of them,
712
01:16:22,560 --> 01:16:28,640
like a clean portrait. They don't do that anymore. Do they? I just, it stood out to me when they did
713
01:16:28,640 --> 01:16:34,880
it for like burn world champs, they shot like a quick, I don't know, few second thing for each
714
01:16:34,880 --> 01:16:41,040
climber and it was, it was fun. Yeah. It's, I can't remember it being regular anymore. So maybe they
715
01:16:41,040 --> 01:16:47,520
have stopped it on the whole, but it used to be a, it was a little bit more like a, you know,
716
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:51,920
pretty, it used to be this annoying thing because I'd do it at the first world cup of the year and
717
01:16:51,920 --> 01:16:56,160
I'd try and get like every athlete to do it. And I'd take a portrait of every athlete that was there
718
01:16:56,160 --> 01:17:00,000
as well. Then you turn up at the next world cup and then another part of the world, there's a whole
719
01:17:00,000 --> 01:17:04,720
different set of athletes. And you're like, all right, there's this whole thing again, you know,
720
01:17:04,720 --> 01:17:09,200
not the easiest process. And, you know, for me taking portraits of athletes used to be,
721
01:17:10,400 --> 01:17:14,640
because they used to say, take portraits of the athletes. I go, okay, but there's a lot of
722
01:17:14,640 --> 01:17:20,160
athletes. Oh, well, we only want portraits of the top 10. I'm like, okay, but what happens when
723
01:17:20,160 --> 01:17:24,960
someone who's not in the top 10 makes finals? Oh, well then you just get a portrait of them.
724
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:28,800
But the thing is going into a season, you don't know who your top 10 is going to be because
725
01:17:29,760 --> 01:17:33,280
you haven't seen them climbing yet. You don't know who's where in their
726
01:17:33,920 --> 01:17:40,400
state of preparation and their state of play. And so yeah, I used to go in and say, okay,
727
01:17:40,400 --> 01:17:48,320
I'll get everyone and I'd do 120 portraits. And then, you know, or sometimes more might be 120
728
01:17:48,320 --> 01:17:55,840
guys and 120 girls. And then you're like, okay, that's my next couple of months done editing,
729
01:17:55,840 --> 01:18:01,760
because you had to cut the backgrounds out. And, you know, that was on top of your usual work. And
730
01:18:01,760 --> 01:18:06,640
then you look on the IFSC website and they got all the portraits up next to the wrong athlete. And
731
01:18:06,640 --> 01:18:16,480
it used to be an adventure and chaos. It was, yeah, you know, there's so many things that you take
732
01:18:16,480 --> 01:18:20,240
for granted as a spectator, but you don't think, well, people have to work really hard behind the
733
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:23,120
scenes to make all these things happen. Right. Yeah. Simple as portraits. And it's funny because
734
01:18:23,120 --> 01:18:26,160
you read the critics and they're always like, why aren't they doing that? And it's like, well,
735
01:18:26,160 --> 01:18:31,520
they're not doing that because it really takes a lot of effort and time. And these people are
736
01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:36,800
trying to do everything. You know, the obsessed media guys, I don't know if they're still the
737
01:18:36,800 --> 01:18:42,640
official media crew, I assume they are, but they, you know, they have to do everything to do with
738
01:18:42,640 --> 01:18:46,800
live video. And then back in the day, when I was the only official photographer, I had to do
739
01:18:46,800 --> 01:18:56,000
everything to do a photography. And you had a bunch of different requests at every comp for,
740
01:18:56,000 --> 01:19:02,320
and as I said, the IFSC was never paying much. It was more of it. I was getting access and that
741
01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:13,280
allowed myself to then go to companies and say, can you, will you work with me? Because what I
742
01:19:13,280 --> 01:19:19,520
tend to do is I don't sell photos after events. I, at the beginning of a season, or anytime in a
743
01:19:19,520 --> 01:19:26,400
season, but normally at the beginning or before a season, I talk with all the companies and they
744
01:19:26,400 --> 01:19:32,480
agree to pay me X amount for the year. And then I provide them a folder of photos of their athletes
745
01:19:32,480 --> 01:19:36,320
from each event that they can then do whatever works. So they don't have to buy individual
746
01:19:36,320 --> 01:19:42,640
photos. They pay me X thousand euros a year. And then they always have, that's much easier than
747
01:19:42,640 --> 01:19:47,840
trying to sell individual photos. You try and sell individual photos and half your life is spent on
748
01:19:47,840 --> 01:19:52,560
heart. The other half of your life is spent chasing invoices that haven't been paid.
749
01:19:52,560 --> 01:19:58,560
There's a lot goes into it. There's a lot of, you know, having all your batteries charged,
750
01:19:58,560 --> 01:20:03,280
having all your SD cards empty, having enough, you know, over all those events,
751
01:20:05,360 --> 01:20:11,280
not including the photos I deleted because I deleted ones that weren't good.
752
01:20:11,280 --> 01:20:17,120
I ended up with more than 600,000 photos. So that's in my keeper pile,
753
01:20:17,120 --> 01:20:23,840
you know, more than half a million photos in my keeper pile. But the great thing about that is
754
01:20:23,840 --> 01:20:29,440
someone goes, Oh, I want a photo of Yanya from 2015. I'm like, here you go. I want a photo of
755
01:20:29,440 --> 01:20:34,880
Arianne from 2019. Here you go. You know, you've got the whole history of an athlete. So as they
756
01:20:34,880 --> 01:20:39,680
evolve and develop, you might want to do a historical piece on them. And you're like,
757
01:20:39,680 --> 01:20:45,360
well, yeah, okay, I've got that. You know, I used to be big on shooting youth worlds and youth comps
758
01:20:45,360 --> 01:20:49,200
where I could as well, because I'm like, well, that's the next generation of World Cup climbers
759
01:20:49,200 --> 01:20:55,280
and having that whole track. And it's funny when you work with youth, because you can,
760
01:20:57,440 --> 01:21:05,280
you can tell your enormous natural talents. But you can also tell your absolutely hungry
761
01:21:05,280 --> 01:21:10,480
athletes that may not be as naturally talented, but will succeed because they're just bloody
762
01:21:10,480 --> 01:21:16,560
minded and want nothing more than to be the best. And you can tell you're, well, they're really
763
01:21:16,560 --> 01:21:23,440
talented, but they're not going to last because, yikes, you know, they, they're distracted by shiny
764
01:21:23,440 --> 01:21:28,160
things, athletes as well. You know, and that's always a real shame. And you want to sit down with
765
01:21:28,160 --> 01:21:32,080
some of them and have a talk and say, you're enormously talented. I know that the opposite
766
01:21:32,080 --> 01:21:36,240
gender or the same gender, whatever it may be, are attractive, but you can date on the side.
767
01:21:36,240 --> 01:21:39,680
You don't have to quit comp climbing just to... Oh, that's what you're talking about?
768
01:21:39,680 --> 01:21:46,000
Oh yeah. Well, because these guys, these are teenagers. And to be a professional athlete,
769
01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:51,680
you sacrifice being a teenager, you sacrifice being a normal developing person because,
770
01:21:51,680 --> 01:21:55,360
oh, we're going to a party tonight. Well, I can't, because I've got training tomorrow morning,
771
01:21:55,360 --> 01:22:00,560
or I can't because I've got training this afternoon. And I'm not going to be able to
772
01:22:00,560 --> 01:22:06,720
do that. And you've got to make life choices that aren't the same as any other teenager.
773
01:22:07,520 --> 01:22:13,280
And, you know, I've coached as well for a long time and I've lost kids that I coached to being
774
01:22:13,280 --> 01:22:18,800
teenagers. And you can't say, well, that's not right because some people just want to life.
775
01:22:19,600 --> 01:22:23,600
Some people... Sure. Yeah. I mean, that's understandable and normal.
776
01:22:24,480 --> 01:22:29,840
So, you know, I had a phenomenal athlete when I was coaching back at the turn of a century,
777
01:22:29,840 --> 01:22:36,080
a very good young climber. And she was probably the best climber at that time New Zealand had
778
01:22:36,080 --> 01:22:46,320
ever had as a potential. And when she hit 16 and her body made all the, I've just hit 16 changes,
779
01:22:46,960 --> 01:22:52,960
and boys started to notice her and other things got more interesting. And that was it. She was
780
01:22:52,960 --> 01:23:00,320
gone. And it was like, you know, what a loss, but she had a great life. She's a wonderful person.
781
01:23:00,880 --> 01:23:08,480
You know, we're still friends today, but her path changed. Climbing wasn't the priority that those
782
01:23:08,480 --> 01:23:16,400
of us that are lifers really wanted it to be. Interesting. I never thought about dating within
783
01:23:16,400 --> 01:23:20,880
the climbing community, I guess, and how that affects people's entire trajectories.
784
01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:24,640
Well, yeah, or dating outside of the climbing community more to the point, because if you're
785
01:23:24,640 --> 01:23:28,720
dating a non-climber and they're like, oh, we just want to go to that party. Oh, well, I'm training
786
01:23:28,720 --> 01:23:32,720
you. And, oh, we'll just come to that, you know, and it's just those little voices in the air. But
787
01:23:34,800 --> 01:23:42,240
the influence on climbers, you can't say enough about how much pressure and how many influences
788
01:23:42,240 --> 01:23:49,040
climbers are under. You know, obviously there's been this big thing about Red S lately.
789
01:23:49,040 --> 01:23:53,360
It's been a long standing issue in the sport. We've been aware of it for a very long time, but
790
01:23:55,360 --> 01:24:01,360
I would say it's been more problematic in the last half decade than it maybe was beforehand.
791
01:24:02,320 --> 01:24:03,600
Oh really? Why's that?
792
01:24:05,600 --> 01:24:10,720
Just, it just seems to be a bit more prevalent because I think the style has changed and
793
01:24:10,720 --> 01:24:15,920
if you're a little power limpet that weighs nothing, you can hold on forever and hold anything.
794
01:24:17,520 --> 01:24:23,040
Well, I guess I thought it would actually be the other way around. Since now it's so much more like
795
01:24:23,840 --> 01:24:25,840
power and just like.
796
01:24:25,840 --> 01:24:31,360
Yeah, it's tricky. And I may be speaking out of turn and I could well be wrong because when I look
797
01:24:31,360 --> 01:24:38,960
back, you know, there were always stories of, you know, people who were like, oh, I'm going to be
798
01:24:38,960 --> 01:24:46,480
a climber. And I think there were stories when we were growing up in the scene, you know, in the
799
01:24:46,480 --> 01:24:55,520
early days of climbers that were dressed, you know, one of the guys would campus until he fainted
800
01:24:56,240 --> 01:25:00,240
and he had fainted from low blood sugar. And then when he, when he came back around,
801
01:25:00,240 --> 01:25:01,680
he'd start campusing again.
802
01:25:02,800 --> 01:25:03,280
Okay.
803
01:25:03,280 --> 01:25:05,280
You know, that's got to be bad for you.
804
01:25:05,280 --> 01:25:05,840
Yeah.
805
01:25:05,840 --> 01:25:13,680
I remember sitting in a hostel with Russian athletes back in 2013 and they were having,
806
01:25:14,320 --> 01:25:23,520
like they were cut a piece of hard boiled egg, like, you know, the width of two 50 cent pieces,
807
01:25:23,520 --> 01:25:27,360
put it between two rice wafers and that was their breakfast.
808
01:25:27,360 --> 01:25:34,560
And you're like, that's not, and there were a lot of very unhealthy practices. I remember
809
01:25:36,480 --> 01:25:40,640
being contacted by one really upset climber because they were on a youth training camp
810
01:25:41,360 --> 01:25:46,320
and they were being made to weigh in in front of everyone every morning after breakfast,
811
01:25:47,520 --> 01:25:53,360
which is kind of like the old gymnastics philosophy that, you know, you want people
812
01:25:53,360 --> 01:25:57,280
to be light. So you make them do a public weigh in so that they're shamed by their peers.
813
01:25:58,160 --> 01:26:03,280
Or another athlete I knew, she contacted me and she was very upset and she's a World Cup medalist
814
01:26:04,240 --> 01:26:11,600
and very good athlete. And her coaches said, you need to get under 50 kilos.
815
01:26:12,240 --> 01:26:17,360
And she said, well, at the size I am 50 kilos, you know, I'm 52 kilos. I'm already as light as
816
01:26:17,360 --> 01:26:22,080
I'm comfortable being. And they said, no, you have to be under 50 kilos. And she said, well,
817
01:26:22,080 --> 01:26:26,000
I can't get under 50 kilos. And they said, well, if you can't, there's lots of other girls that can.
818
01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:33,120
And then they went to her parents and said to her parents, she's not putting in the effort.
819
01:26:33,680 --> 01:26:38,640
She's not willing to make the sacrifices needed to be a top climber. And so her parents basically
820
01:26:38,640 --> 01:26:45,120
turned against her and went, we've spent all this time and money helping you be a really good climber.
821
01:26:45,120 --> 01:26:49,200
Why are you slacking off now? And she wasn't slacking off. She was just trying to be healthy.
822
01:26:49,200 --> 01:26:54,320
And it was the Federation coaches that were pushing that. And I raised that back in the day
823
01:26:54,320 --> 01:27:01,440
with the IFSC and goodness knows of much came of it. But, you know, she's still climbing and competing
824
01:27:01,440 --> 01:27:08,560
now. So I like to think that she's doing all right. But it's like, a lot of them had contact me when
825
01:27:08,560 --> 01:27:17,520
they had issues because I was close to the athletes, but I'm a safe person because after a bad comp,
826
01:27:17,520 --> 01:27:22,320
or a bad round, or your head's in just the wrong space, you don't want to go to your coach because
827
01:27:22,320 --> 01:27:26,800
your coaches spend all this time working on you. You kind of don't want to say, hey, because you
828
01:27:26,800 --> 01:27:31,440
feel like you're failing them. And the same with the parents. So they kind of wanted like a neutral
829
01:27:31,440 --> 01:27:39,200
party to, you know, who could empathize with them, but wouldn't judge them. And so that sort of became
830
01:27:39,200 --> 01:27:47,120
as an older person, I was sort of like the sounding board for a lot of them. Yeah, I was the person
831
01:27:47,120 --> 01:27:52,080
that a lot of them came to. And there was a few that were bad and I had to go, okay, I actually
832
01:27:52,080 --> 01:27:57,120
have to escalate this to people in the IFSC because what you're talking to me is abuse.
833
01:27:57,120 --> 01:28:04,080
Yeah. I guess that's kind of why I think that why I thought that it would be better nowadays than
834
01:28:04,080 --> 01:28:09,440
in the past because we've like learned from experiences or learned from people who've spoken
835
01:28:09,440 --> 01:28:15,280
out about it or things like that. I like to think so, but obviously I was in Slovenia last year as a
836
01:28:15,280 --> 01:28:23,440
coach, I took over a couple of girls that I was coaching to compete and some of them still look
837
01:28:25,040 --> 01:28:33,600
like they're on the wrong side of the battle at the moment. And so I think that's why I thought
838
01:28:33,600 --> 01:28:40,400
and it's always tricky. I know, for instance, one of the very good climbing
839
01:28:42,240 --> 01:28:47,200
females used to say, look, I lose weight for every season to compete, but I make sure I put the weight
840
01:28:47,200 --> 01:28:52,720
back on in the off season so that I'm not so unhealthy. And I don't know that that was a
841
01:28:52,720 --> 01:28:56,880
sustainable method or effect that ended up doing long-term harm to her. She's retired now. So
842
01:28:56,880 --> 01:29:04,880
I can't say, but like kind of like boxes, trying to get down to a fighting weight.
843
01:29:04,880 --> 01:29:15,280
Yeah. But at what point does cutting get dangerous? At what point are you harming yourself? And
844
01:29:16,720 --> 01:29:22,880
climbing definitely had a pretty poor culture around that back in the day. And I think,
845
01:29:22,880 --> 01:29:29,200
I guess just maybe because it's been in the media so much lately and I hear about it and I
846
01:29:29,200 --> 01:29:36,000
look at some of the photos and I'm like, I still, I used to refuse to sell photos of climbers that
847
01:29:37,280 --> 01:29:45,360
had obvious health issues and eating disorders. I remember at one stage, Natalie Berry contacted
848
01:29:45,360 --> 01:29:49,200
me and said they wanted to run a profile on a climber. I said, look, I'm not comfortable
849
01:29:49,200 --> 01:29:56,800
sending you photos of them because even though I might make 500 or a thousand euros, that's a bad
850
01:29:57,840 --> 01:30:03,680
precedent to be setting to make that an acceptable body type. And you might go, well, who are you to
851
01:30:03,680 --> 01:30:11,680
judge? And I'm like, well, I'm someone of eyes. Sure. And because you know these kids, especially
852
01:30:11,680 --> 01:30:15,920
if you know them from when they're juniors, if they turn up one year and they look amassed,
853
01:30:15,920 --> 01:30:22,400
did you like hold it? Something's gone wrong. Sure. Yeah. You know, there was a couple of
854
01:30:22,400 --> 01:30:30,480
cases of that happened where the climbers had taken on upon themselves. And I even had coaches
855
01:30:30,480 --> 01:30:34,640
come to me and say, can you talk to my climber? Cause they're too skinny and they won't listen to
856
01:30:34,640 --> 01:30:39,360
me. And I think they're unhealthy. And you go to the athlete and you say, look, we're worried
857
01:30:39,360 --> 01:30:46,720
about you. You look terrible. I'm fine. And you're like, no, you're not. So, and the thing is as
858
01:30:46,720 --> 01:30:53,280
well, people tend to gender red S a lot. Um, because obviously a lot of, uh, studies and stuff
859
01:30:53,280 --> 01:31:01,200
have been around, uh, long-term health and females, but it's also very applicable in the males. Um,
860
01:31:02,560 --> 01:31:07,920
some of the guys were dreadfully skinny. And I think that in the guys, at least the healthy
861
01:31:07,920 --> 01:31:12,400
physiques tend to outweigh the unhealthy physiques now, but there was definitely, you know,
862
01:31:12,960 --> 01:31:20,240
back in the days of Rooster and Demetri and that they were just gaunt, incredibly gaunt.
863
01:31:21,440 --> 01:31:31,840
You know, when, when you're 46 or 50 kilos is like a five foot nine guy. Yeah. Yeah. And
864
01:31:31,840 --> 01:31:36,400
you're athletic. You're like, okay, something, you know, you're, you're that's as much as one
865
01:31:36,400 --> 01:31:41,360
of my legs. Please excuse this brief intermission, but I would just like to remind you that if you
866
01:31:41,360 --> 01:31:45,920
are enjoying this podcast, please follow and rate it on your preferred listening platform.
867
01:31:45,920 --> 01:31:50,160
If you're watching on YouTube, I would love to hear your discussion and thoughts in the comments
868
01:31:50,160 --> 01:31:56,480
below. Anything helps to push this podcast out to more people and get even more amazing guests on
869
01:31:57,120 --> 01:32:03,520
back to the show. So that reminds me a bit of one, uh, like in the discord when I was getting some
870
01:32:03,520 --> 01:32:11,280
questions that we could get into a bit later, um, kind of started discussion about, uh, photo
871
01:32:11,280 --> 01:32:19,680
journalism, um, objectivity of the climbers and getting engagement. Um, like when you said that
872
01:32:19,680 --> 01:32:23,760
you wouldn't sell certain photos of certain climbers because you didn't feel comfortable
873
01:32:23,760 --> 01:32:30,640
doing that. I guess they said that photographers or photographers are sometimes making a living from
874
01:32:30,640 --> 01:32:38,080
exploiting climbers in a way. Um, so for example, like, do you photograph athletes in vulnerable
875
01:32:38,080 --> 01:32:43,600
moments? Like when they find out they didn't podium or when they get injured or something like that?
876
01:32:44,720 --> 01:32:52,000
Uh, yeah, absolutely. But I then have to make a judgment call on whether those photos should
877
01:32:52,000 --> 01:33:04,400
ever be published. So how do you, I guess, take the, if you don't take the photo, then it disappears
878
01:33:04,400 --> 01:33:11,120
as part of a narrative forever. If you take the photo, then later on someone might come back and
879
01:33:11,120 --> 01:33:16,720
say, Hey, you know, I was going through a really rough period. Now I want to do a, um, a thing
880
01:33:16,720 --> 01:33:23,600
about my redemption arc, my getting back to the top. Um, did you get any photos of that? And
881
01:33:23,600 --> 01:33:33,040
actually, yeah, I did. I just chose not to share them. Um, it's, a lot of it comes down to knowing
882
01:33:33,040 --> 01:33:38,080
the athletes and what they're comfortable with. I've had some clangers, I've put, put up some photos
883
01:33:39,440 --> 01:33:46,400
thinking a photo was harmless and just like a fun angle or something. And then the climbers
884
01:33:46,400 --> 01:33:51,440
copped abuse just from the public. Cause they've gone, Oh, look at the size of their ass. Oh,
885
01:33:51,440 --> 01:33:56,000
I thought climbers are supposed to be skinny. Oh, the sudden the other. And I'm like, Oh my God,
886
01:33:56,000 --> 01:34:02,720
that's not what, you know, I had this photo many years ago now of, um, Chloe, Chloe Coolia from
887
01:34:03,520 --> 01:34:12,320
Belgium. And she was just in this crazy position in Vail. And I posted it cause when I looked at
888
01:34:12,320 --> 01:34:16,880
the photo and I looked at her face and I looked at her body position, I'm like, that's cool. But
889
01:34:16,880 --> 01:34:22,640
when I posted it, a lot of people went to town on it and they didn't go to town on me for taking
890
01:34:22,640 --> 01:34:29,680
the photo. It went to town on her for her physique in that angle wasn't flattering. And I'm like,
891
01:34:29,680 --> 01:34:36,480
guys, no one's flattering in every angle all the time. Um, but it did make me very conscious. And
892
01:34:36,480 --> 01:34:46,640
one time, um, I actually pulled a photo down that I posted cause I took a photo in, um,
893
01:34:47,840 --> 01:34:55,200
Wujiang in, I'm going to say 2019 when everyone was doing speed because they were all trying to
894
01:34:55,200 --> 01:34:59,760
get them to combine for the Olympics. And there's a couple of the guys and they're assembling,
895
01:34:59,760 --> 01:35:05,360
like they were, they were miming the route to each other and they're doing that. And I
896
01:35:05,360 --> 01:35:10,880
took this photo and I put it up and then, um, the Austrian coach messaged me and said, Hey, can you
897
01:35:10,880 --> 01:35:14,480
take that down? And I'm like, why? And it's like, it looks like they're doing the hit list to lose
898
01:35:14,480 --> 01:35:20,400
and that's not appropriate. And I looked at it and I went, Oh, okay. Yeah. I like, I wouldn't see that,
899
01:35:20,400 --> 01:35:29,440
but I could see how someone would see that. And so I took it down. You know, um, so there are,
900
01:35:29,440 --> 01:35:38,720
uh, there are times you take photos that are inadvertently upsetting and there are times you
901
01:35:38,720 --> 01:35:44,240
take photos that are upsetting, but you know that it's going to, you take a photo of a climber being
902
01:35:44,240 --> 01:35:50,800
carried off of a stuff knee. You're not going to post that photo, but you know that that photo
903
01:35:50,800 --> 01:35:56,960
might have an intrinsic value later on. Um, the question is, do you post it or not? And that comes
904
01:35:56,960 --> 01:36:04,000
down to your individual ethics and your individual, you know, I've got photos of
905
01:36:05,120 --> 01:36:12,400
Yanya having a cry after not doing well on a comp and I've not posted them, but took the photo,
906
01:36:13,840 --> 01:36:21,440
you know, um, cause she's a human, she cries. That's not demeaning to her. That's just
907
01:36:21,440 --> 01:36:28,080
how important winning is that, you know, all these athletes have standards and when they fail to
908
01:36:28,800 --> 01:36:35,680
meet their own perceived standards, they, they are emotional and that is part of the three
909
01:36:35,680 --> 01:36:43,680
dimensionality of the sport. Um, I don't know if you watch back coverage yet of, um, Salt Lake, but,
910
01:36:43,680 --> 01:36:49,680
Alex was talking in commentary and I thought it was very relevant about sort of the false smiles
911
01:36:49,680 --> 01:36:56,080
that some of the girls put on now. They, they have like the, the gymnast dash dancer smile where they
912
01:36:56,080 --> 01:37:00,800
just walk around with like a Richter's grin the whole time and it just looks terrible, but they're
913
01:37:00,800 --> 01:37:09,760
just like, okay. And it's that in itself as a defense mechanism that
914
01:37:09,760 --> 01:37:12,960
taught to do it. And it's like, look at me, I'm having fun. And you're looking at the guy,
915
01:37:12,960 --> 01:37:18,880
that's the most unnatural smile I've ever seen. The thing is some people don't want to show, you
916
01:37:18,880 --> 01:37:27,840
know, take, and I'm not saying she's a fake smiler, but I'm going to take a smiler versus a
917
01:37:27,840 --> 01:37:36,560
non-smiler, take Natalia, who's a smiler and Stacia, who's a non-smiler. And I'm going to
918
01:37:36,560 --> 01:37:43,920
and Stacia, who's a non-smiler and, um, I knew those would be your two examples. Yeah. Or Jan
919
01:37:43,920 --> 01:37:52,720
Hyler, Jan Hoyer, who's a non-smiler, um, versus maybe Enrico, who's more of a smiler, but not like
920
01:37:52,720 --> 01:37:58,240
a huge, but you know what I'm saying? Like people show different levels of emotion and some people
921
01:37:58,880 --> 01:38:03,360
wear their hat on the sleeve and other people close that off and defend it. Um,
922
01:38:03,360 --> 01:38:12,880
that's a very, that's part of the front they present. Um, and you know, I can't remember how
923
01:38:12,880 --> 01:38:18,880
we got to smiles off photos people are uncomfortable with, but that's, it's part of the facade. And
924
01:38:20,080 --> 01:38:27,200
at the end of the day, this may sound a bit brutal, but it's almost part of the athletic
925
01:38:27,200 --> 01:38:33,600
contract that when you are having photos taken of you as a professional athlete, not every photo is
926
01:38:33,600 --> 01:38:42,160
going to be flattering. Um, but every photo should tell a story. If a photo is not flattering and
927
01:38:42,160 --> 01:38:46,400
it doesn't tell a story, well, there's no value in this photo, but if a photo is not flattering,
928
01:38:47,200 --> 01:38:54,880
but it tells a story, you know, the photo I took of, or a series of photos I took of Ola Muraslow,
929
01:38:54,880 --> 01:39:03,200
when she qualified for Olympics in Hachioji and she's blubbing like a baby, not the nicest set of
930
01:39:03,200 --> 01:39:10,160
photos of her, but conveys pure emotion. Cause she's unbelievably happy. Now, should I not put
931
01:39:10,160 --> 01:39:14,560
those photos, should I not put those photos up because it doesn't show her happy and smiling
932
01:39:15,360 --> 01:39:20,880
because she, she is very happy, but she's blubbing. So she doesn't, you know, it's not the,
933
01:39:20,880 --> 01:39:27,440
the most attractive look, but like, but you look at it and you go, okay, that's raw emotion. That's,
934
01:39:28,720 --> 01:39:37,200
you know, the photo journalism is journalism. It's not just a photo and photo journalism has
935
01:39:37,200 --> 01:39:42,960
to be a free 60 degree thing. And that means the good as well as the bad, as well as the ugly,
936
01:39:42,960 --> 01:39:48,560
as well as the pretty, you know, if I was a media whore, that's not a good thing.
937
01:39:48,560 --> 01:39:55,040
If I was a media whore that just wanted hundreds of thousands of photos or hundreds of thousands
938
01:39:55,040 --> 01:40:01,200
of followers, sorry, on Instagram or something, I'd just post photos of female climbers and I'd
939
01:40:01,200 --> 01:40:07,120
just post photos of attractive female climbers. But that again is disrespectful and creepy and a bit
940
01:40:08,960 --> 01:40:10,480
Yeah, that's so gross to think about.
941
01:40:11,200 --> 01:40:16,080
You know, when I, you know, I had fairly strong social media following and it's fallen away now,
942
01:40:16,080 --> 01:40:22,080
of course, cause I haven't been as active, but I would know if I posted a photo of a pretty girl,
943
01:40:22,080 --> 01:40:25,600
I get twice as many likes as if I posted a photo of Yakub Schubert.
944
01:40:27,840 --> 01:40:30,640
Even if a pretty girl was just midfield somewhere
945
01:40:32,480 --> 01:40:35,040
because people just are based.
946
01:40:35,840 --> 01:40:36,340
Interesting.
947
01:40:36,340 --> 01:40:47,380
So for me, you know, I had have a pretty strong standard and how I've always done my social media,
948
01:40:47,380 --> 01:40:55,380
which was where possible and it wasn't always possible. So, but I tried to keep a overall
949
01:40:55,380 --> 01:41:02,260
balance would be male photo, female photo and blend of ethnicity photo.
950
01:41:02,260 --> 01:41:07,220
So I would not do a dozen posts of females in a row, a dozen posts of males in a row,
951
01:41:07,220 --> 01:41:12,740
a dozen posts of white guys in a row, a dozen posts of age. It would, you know, I tried to
952
01:41:12,740 --> 01:41:24,660
constantly blend the subject matter of the photos by ethnicity, by nationality, by gender,
953
01:41:24,660 --> 01:41:33,140
so that I wasn't falling into a trap, but that has to be a conscious choice and it has to be
954
01:41:33,940 --> 01:41:39,940
deliberated, you know, but that's part of a responsibility of being a professional,
955
01:41:39,940 --> 01:41:44,900
as you need to carry yourself in a professional manner. And sometimes I haven't and I've been
956
01:41:44,900 --> 01:41:52,420
caught out for it and it's embarrassing. And I don't think I've ever maliciously been
957
01:41:52,420 --> 01:41:56,100
unprofessional, but there are times, like I mentioned with that Nazi salute one, that I was
958
01:41:56,100 --> 01:42:01,060
just accidentally non-professional. As a photographer, you get a chance to kind of
959
01:42:01,060 --> 01:42:10,180
like think about it before you post. I remember one instance, I think last year in copper,
960
01:42:11,940 --> 01:42:18,580
Mia Crampel like fell early. It was really devastating and the camera kept like cutting to
961
01:42:18,580 --> 01:42:26,100
her crying, like sitting in the athlete area after. And I think I remember people were like
962
01:42:26,100 --> 01:42:33,300
pretty upset about it in the comments. Yeah, I was at that comp. I remember it. I don't remember
963
01:42:33,300 --> 01:42:36,500
if it was copper was the one she fell, or whether I watched that just when I was watching it back.
964
01:42:36,500 --> 01:42:44,180
I honestly can't remember because I tend to tend to watch the rounds afterwards, even if I'm at
965
01:42:44,180 --> 01:42:48,580
the round, just because you actually miss a lot when you're taking photos. People always come up
966
01:42:48,580 --> 01:42:54,340
and say, who won? And I've got no idea. Oh yeah, I've heard that. It's important to show
967
01:42:55,140 --> 01:43:02,500
the range of emotion, but it's important not to linger. I think you can show that she's upset,
968
01:43:04,180 --> 01:43:09,140
but by the third time you're showing she's upset, you're being a dick about it.
969
01:43:09,140 --> 01:43:16,740
You know, it's human nature to be upset. If you want to show
970
01:43:19,220 --> 01:43:25,140
an athlete, male or female, having a blob after they haven't met their goals, that's not
971
01:43:25,140 --> 01:43:31,140
disrespectful for them because it just shows how important it is to them to do well. But if you
972
01:43:31,140 --> 01:43:37,700
keep going back to it, then it becomes a bit voyeuristic. Okay. That's a good word to use,
973
01:43:37,700 --> 01:43:43,700
I guess. It's always a dark side of the sport is you have one winner and a whole lot of
974
01:43:44,980 --> 01:43:50,980
losers. But what you need to remember is that winning is not everyone's goal. For a lot of
975
01:43:50,980 --> 01:43:58,660
them, their goal might just be top 10, top 20, top 50, because it's a stairway to get to the top.
976
01:43:58,660 --> 01:44:09,140
But in a pure unadulterated format in sport, more people are always going to lose than they're
977
01:44:09,140 --> 01:44:16,500
going to win. There's no participation award. It's about seeing if you're the best, you can be the
978
01:44:16,500 --> 01:44:24,100
best in the world. And some people just aren't. But they should be able to take some, if not a
979
01:44:24,100 --> 01:44:29,460
lot of satisfaction from being in the top tiniest, tiniest percent of people in the world. Because
980
01:44:29,460 --> 01:44:34,660
to even get to a World Cup, you get to a World Cup and you come last and you're so embarrassed
981
01:44:34,660 --> 01:44:41,140
and that's so bad and you got to a World Cup. How many people ever get to a World Cup in any sport?
982
01:44:41,860 --> 01:44:48,900
How many people are good enough that they can go, okay, I am going out on the mats against
983
01:44:48,900 --> 01:44:58,820
Tomoa Narasaki? And we sometimes have a narrative that someone's a loser because they're a
984
01:44:59,380 --> 01:45:05,860
regular finalist, but not a winner. And it's like, well, hold it. You look at someone like Oceana
985
01:45:05,860 --> 01:45:13,380
McKenzie, regular finalist now, and came from a country without a strong climbing culture, without
986
01:45:13,380 --> 01:45:18,340
a strong climbing history. She's had to forge her own path. She's had to make sacrifices and her
987
01:45:18,340 --> 01:45:26,260
family's had to make sacrifices far beyond what 99% of people would even be willing to make.
988
01:45:27,300 --> 01:45:34,740
To me at every level, that's a winner. But some people will go, well, she never won a World Cup.
989
01:45:34,740 --> 01:45:41,540
She'll just go down as an also around that area. And it's like, she's not. She's not a winner.
990
01:45:41,540 --> 01:45:50,180
She's not. She's the best competition climber Oceana has ever had. Someone like Campbell Harrison,
991
01:45:50,180 --> 01:45:54,100
he's been plugging for years. And sorry, I'm focusing on the Australians now, but
992
01:45:54,100 --> 01:45:58,340
geographically they're close to me. And I've had Campbell on the podcast.
993
01:45:58,980 --> 01:46:06,180
Yeah. And he's nicest dude ever. And I've known him since he was about 15. And he's in that
994
01:46:06,180 --> 01:46:10,340
category, how I described, some people had the talent, some people had the bloody mindedness.
995
01:46:10,340 --> 01:46:16,980
No one I've ever met has been more bloody minded than Campbell. He wants to be the best Campbell
996
01:46:16,980 --> 01:46:25,620
can be. And will he ever win a World Cup? Probably not. Will he retire one day and look back and go,
997
01:46:25,620 --> 01:46:29,620
my goodness, look at what I achieved. Look at how far I pushed the sport in my part of the world.
998
01:46:29,620 --> 01:46:40,420
Look at what I did for the sport among his demographic, incredible accomplishment.
999
01:46:40,420 --> 01:46:44,420
So an example of Campbell is I remember Campbell as maybe a 17 year old.
1000
01:46:46,580 --> 01:46:51,220
And we were in Imps and he had a bad World Cup and he came off and he just threw his shoes.
1001
01:46:52,420 --> 01:46:57,700
Like, and I pulled him up and I told him off and I said, dude, I know you're upset, but
1002
01:46:57,700 --> 01:47:03,940
it's not a good look. And he was pretty frustrated at me. And he was pretty frustrated about the
1003
01:47:03,940 --> 01:47:11,140
whole thing. I said, look, at the end of the day, it takes a certain amount of toughness and maturity
1004
01:47:11,140 --> 01:47:18,340
to be an athlete. And we all have bad days, but you know, that's kind of disrespectful and distracting
1005
01:47:18,340 --> 01:47:24,820
to everyone else around if you start performing like that. And he took that on board and it didn't
1006
01:47:24,820 --> 01:47:31,780
do it again. And that's the, you know, he was very upset with himself because he was climbing very
1007
01:47:31,780 --> 01:47:38,820
well and he made a silly mistake. And then, you know, and that's the thing with athletes is
1008
01:47:41,940 --> 01:47:50,420
they are emotionally highly strung because they've committed so much. You know, you think of
1009
01:47:50,420 --> 01:47:57,780
how scary like a major exam is. And every time they do a World Cup, it's like a major exam in public
1010
01:47:57,780 --> 01:48:05,620
with thousands of people. They don't know watching them. Like that's confronting. You know, in
1011
01:48:07,780 --> 01:48:14,260
2017 at World Games, Stacia Gaiot came up to me after qualifiers and she qualified sixth in the
1012
01:48:14,260 --> 01:48:20,420
finals. So last in the finals. And she was in tears and she wanted to quit and she didn't want to do
1013
01:48:20,420 --> 01:48:26,260
this again and yada, yada, yada. And I was like, look, you're really good. It's one more round.
1014
01:48:26,260 --> 01:48:30,260
You've made it to the next round. Give it your all and see how you feel afterwards. And she ended up
1015
01:48:30,260 --> 01:48:38,500
winning. So, you know, it's like, sometimes you
1016
01:48:38,500 --> 01:48:46,180
as a human, as an athlete, as a young person, you need to release all this pent up tension and
1017
01:48:46,180 --> 01:48:53,780
anger and angst. But then when you come back and focus again afterwards, you're, you're lethal
1018
01:48:53,780 --> 01:49:02,260
because you're absolutely tuned in. You, everything is right at the top of the fight or flight thing.
1019
01:49:02,260 --> 01:49:08,820
And everything means a lot and you climb your backside off. So, you know, people
1020
01:49:10,580 --> 01:49:19,140
forget that when they talk about climbers like, uh, Janya or Natalia or, um, people like that, that
1021
01:49:19,860 --> 01:49:24,740
they're climbers they've only ever given the opportunity to lose because they're so good at
1022
01:49:24,740 --> 01:49:30,820
winning. The only way is down. And then you're like, oh, I'm going to win. And then you're like,
1023
01:49:30,820 --> 01:49:36,340
oh, I'm going to win. And you're like, oh, I'm going to win. And the only way is down.
1024
01:49:37,220 --> 01:49:44,740
They can maintain the status quo or drop. And that's a brutal place for an athlete to be. That's
1025
01:49:44,740 --> 01:49:51,860
almost worse than not being a winner. Geez. Yeah. You know, I remember years ago, I interviewed
1026
01:49:51,860 --> 01:49:56,980
Killian Fishuber, um, you know, one of the absolute legends of competition bouldering,
1027
01:49:56,980 --> 01:50:00,020
and the hardest thing to win after that is your second World Cup.
1028
01:50:01,860 --> 01:50:05,860
He said, you know, until you've won a World Cup, you're one of the many that have never won a World
1029
01:50:05,860 --> 01:50:12,020
Cup. And then you win a World Cup, and you become one of the many that's only won one World Cup.
1030
01:50:13,460 --> 01:50:20,100
And once you won a couple of World Cups, it kind of gets a little bit easier, not easier, but like,
1031
01:50:20,100 --> 01:50:25,940
it's a little bit easier to take less pressure. But it flips when you suddenly, you're someone who's won
1032
01:50:28,100 --> 01:50:32,180
10 World Cups or 20 World Cups, or in Yanyi's case, more than 40 World Cups.
1033
01:50:33,060 --> 01:50:37,300
Every time you go out there, you're putting yourself in a position of vulnerability.
1034
01:50:39,140 --> 01:50:44,740
You know, Yanyi could retire tomorrow, and I'd give her the biggest hug and say, congratulations
1035
01:50:44,740 --> 01:50:50,820
on a fantastic career. And I completely understand why she's retiring, even though she could have
1036
01:50:50,820 --> 01:50:57,700
another decade at the top of the sport. When Yula Worm retired, she won the World Championships in
1037
01:50:57,700 --> 01:51:04,500
2014, and then retired. And I'm like, you're 24, why are you retiring? And she's like,
1038
01:51:05,060 --> 01:51:11,540
I've been on the road for eight years. I haven't had normal life for eight years. What more can
1039
01:51:11,540 --> 01:51:17,700
I achieve from being a world champion? And I was like, yeah, fair. You know?
1040
01:51:17,700 --> 01:51:22,500
And I guess it's like, you don't want to watch your own downfall, I guess, as you eventually
1041
01:51:23,540 --> 01:51:28,020
start to age and stuff like that. You don't want to be the has-been.
1042
01:51:29,220 --> 01:51:32,820
Some people do because it's all they know. And they just, it's their people,
1043
01:51:32,820 --> 01:51:37,300
it's their environment, and they're almost at peace with themselves and that decline. But
1044
01:51:37,300 --> 01:51:43,220
you know, it's not a sport that most people will be doing when they're 40. It's not a sport that
1045
01:51:43,220 --> 01:51:47,060
most people will be doing when they're 30. And then the females, it's not a sport what
1046
01:51:47,060 --> 01:51:51,860
most people will be doing when they're in their late 20s. You know, I remember
1047
01:51:53,300 --> 01:52:02,580
Kyra and Jessie and all Vatten Juniors when they were 18, 19. And now they are kind of in the
1048
01:52:02,580 --> 01:52:07,380
twilight of their careers. They might have another three or four seasons, but they are, you know,
1049
01:52:07,380 --> 01:52:13,140
I guess, yeah, between six, 27. You know, at what point do you go, well, actually,
1050
01:52:14,180 --> 01:52:19,940
I want a family, I want a life, I want normalcy. But speaking on those terms, like
1051
01:52:20,580 --> 01:52:26,340
Campbell, you were talking about earlier, he's also getting older. He's been in the scene for
1052
01:52:26,340 --> 01:52:31,540
a long time, but this is also kind of like the best season he's had. And he's been in the
1053
01:52:31,540 --> 01:52:37,220
the best season he's had so far. Oh, absolutely. Because it's not just purely age related.
1054
01:52:37,780 --> 01:52:46,420
You do definitely see older climbers still rising to the top. But there is a, you know,
1055
01:52:46,420 --> 01:52:53,140
as I said with Campbell, he's so bloody minded, which is a huge, and I mean that as a compliment,
1056
01:52:53,140 --> 01:53:04,580
it's a it's a very important attribute for an athlete to have is to be willing to sacrifice.
1057
01:53:05,940 --> 01:53:11,060
You know, Campbell's in a relationship, he leaves his partner at home, he goes and does what he does.
1058
01:53:11,700 --> 01:53:16,500
That's got a way on him. But maybe that's a positive weighing on him, because by knowing
1059
01:53:16,500 --> 01:53:20,660
how important that is, it gives him some and knowing that he's got something to come home to,
1060
01:53:20,660 --> 01:53:29,300
it's put him in a better place. It's a person to person thing. You know, you look at some of the
1061
01:53:29,300 --> 01:53:38,500
older campaigners like Sean McCall or Jakob Schubert or even Adam now, and you know, their time will pass.
1062
01:53:40,260 --> 01:53:45,380
Great thing about climbing is you can pass for competitions and still go and have a fantastic
1063
01:53:45,380 --> 01:53:54,020
life in the sport. Look at Shawna. You know, she closed the chapter on competitions, but she's gone
1064
01:53:54,020 --> 01:54:02,900
on to be Shawna. So yeah, it's, you know, if you're a football player, once you stop playing
1065
01:54:02,900 --> 01:54:08,740
football, you stop playing football. Right. Yeah, I guess so. If you're a
1066
01:54:08,740 --> 01:54:16,340
boxer, once you stop boxing, you stop boxing. If you're a climber, once you stop competing,
1067
01:54:16,980 --> 01:54:22,260
you've got the whole world of outdoor boulders and roots. I'm sorry, I'm a boulder at heart.
1068
01:54:24,260 --> 01:54:29,220
Or you become like a ninja warrior. If you want to make some money.
1069
01:54:31,140 --> 01:54:35,540
So yeah, or you use your platform in another way. You know, a lot of people
1070
01:54:35,540 --> 01:54:40,740
now in the age of social media and stuff, they like to use their platform more to
1071
01:54:41,860 --> 01:54:48,660
talk about social issues or empowerment or whatever it may be. Now, are they qualified to do so?
1072
01:54:48,660 --> 01:54:52,820
Arguably not. Are they within their rights to do so? Absolutely.
1073
01:54:55,860 --> 01:55:03,700
And, you know, so you get that sort of being an influencer can come after you retire.
1074
01:55:03,700 --> 01:55:09,380
You know, there's all sorts of things that you can do. And
1075
01:55:11,860 --> 01:55:16,020
yeah, hanging up your chalk bag for the last time in competition is very different to hanging up
1076
01:55:16,020 --> 01:55:20,820
your chalk bag for the last time in real life. And, you know, we're lucky that we're in a
1077
01:55:20,820 --> 01:55:27,220
lifelong sport where, you know, yeah, some people will probably hang up and maybe never climb again,
1078
01:55:27,220 --> 01:55:34,580
but the vast majority won't. I kind of wanted to get into areas of improvement that you see for the
1079
01:55:34,580 --> 01:55:41,140
IFSC, since I think you have some pretty strong opinions about that as well. See, I know people
1080
01:55:41,140 --> 01:55:47,140
will be sick of me saying this now and I sound like a broken record, but, you know, last couple
1081
01:55:47,140 --> 01:55:53,140
years because so I had a pretty major knee injury. I said earlier in the episode about how that stopped
1082
01:55:53,140 --> 01:55:57,860
me climbing at my limit. When I got back to New Zealand, it had become unstable. So I finally had
1083
01:55:57,860 --> 01:56:07,220
the operation required in putting my knee back to how it should be, but it'll never be the same now
1084
01:56:07,220 --> 01:56:12,740
because so much damage happened over the years that I was on the road, but it wasn't being done.
1085
01:56:12,740 --> 01:56:16,740
And so I myself, I haven't actually climbed in three years because I'm too scared to fall now.
1086
01:56:16,740 --> 01:56:23,300
So maybe that door has shut forever for me. I don't know, but, you know, there's days I desperately
1087
01:56:23,300 --> 01:56:32,740
want to go to the gym and then I think, I don't know if I'm brave enough to. And so I've taken up
1088
01:56:32,740 --> 01:56:36,660
disc golf as a sport because disc golf is kind of a great retired climber sport because
1089
01:56:37,220 --> 01:56:43,700
it's physical problem solving to achieve an objective, which is effectively climbing.
1090
01:56:43,700 --> 01:56:51,620
You know, you've not nearly as physical, so it's good for the decrepit broken people like me.
1091
01:56:52,580 --> 01:56:56,820
But it's still, you know, what disc do you use? How do you shape the shops? How do you get to
1092
01:56:56,820 --> 01:57:03,380
where you need to be? But the thing that's astounded me is disc golf, I would say is a
1093
01:57:03,380 --> 01:57:10,100
very similar size sport to climbing. So there's a professional tour, there's a professional body,
1094
01:57:10,100 --> 01:57:17,300
there's approximately 20 disc golfers, 20 million disc golfers, they said worldwide.
1095
01:57:17,300 --> 01:57:23,220
There's approximately 20 million gym users worldwide, according to most of the statistics
1096
01:57:23,220 --> 01:57:32,820
we see from the IFSC in that. And so disc golf has its pro tour. And, you know, they had champions
1097
01:57:32,820 --> 01:57:38,740
cup a couple of weeks ago and first place is nine and a half thousand dollars. And so it's a
1098
01:57:38,740 --> 01:57:47,300
$1,500 and they pay down to 40th. And you get what two and a half for winning a World Cup and
1099
01:57:47,300 --> 01:57:57,060
they pay down to eighth. Like, you can't actually survive being a competition climber, even if you
1100
01:57:57,060 --> 01:58:07,700
won every World Cup you went to. And that's not a sustainable way for a sport to exist. And I think
1101
01:58:07,700 --> 01:58:15,300
that they need to, for starters, I think they need to have prize money down to everyone who
1102
01:58:15,300 --> 01:58:24,020
makes semis should get prize money. If you're televised, you should be paid. I also think
1103
01:58:25,780 --> 01:58:33,940
semis should be 20 for LEAD as well as Boulder because I think 26 is a bit of a hangover to the
1104
01:58:33,940 --> 01:58:42,500
old days. Yeah. Do you know why it's 26? Seems kind of random. Like a division to eight. Not even. I
1105
01:58:42,500 --> 01:58:52,500
don't know. No, I've got no idea. No, I was spitballing, but nothing. But I think it'd speed up
1106
01:58:52,500 --> 01:58:57,540
the event, make it run smoother if it was just 20 in each. And I think if you're televised, you
1107
01:58:57,540 --> 01:59:08,260
should be getting money. And so there's a couple of big changes I would do, which would forever
1108
01:59:08,260 --> 01:59:16,500
change the IFSC. The first thing I would do is I'd stop competing for countries. I'd get rid of
1109
01:59:16,500 --> 01:59:24,340
national federations. I would compete for sponsors. And your body is the real estate that you can put
1110
01:59:24,340 --> 01:59:30,740
sponsors advertising on. So if you're a North Face Scarpa athlete and you're climbing Logut up in
1111
01:59:30,740 --> 01:59:37,540
North Face Scarpa, North Face and Scarpa are going to pay you better. Because at the moment,
1112
01:59:37,540 --> 01:59:44,900
they get these tiny little sponsor things that they can put on. But you might be an Adidas sponsored
1113
01:59:44,900 --> 01:59:53,940
athlete climbing for a country which has a North Face outfit. And there's all these limiting
1114
01:59:53,940 --> 02:00:01,380
factors. And why does the sponsor want to pay real money for a two inch by one inch patch on the back
1115
02:00:01,380 --> 02:00:07,380
of your shorts that you harness as covering half the time anyway? Is that like something that Disc
1116
02:00:07,380 --> 02:00:13,860
Golf does? It's like individual sponsored? Yeah, you're individually sponsored and you compete on
1117
02:00:13,860 --> 02:00:22,740
and tennis and many other sports. You might be from such and such country, but you're wearing
1118
02:00:22,740 --> 02:00:30,020
what you want and competing for yourself. And you get into events on your rating and your ranking,
1119
02:00:30,020 --> 02:00:35,620
not on a national pick. And if that means that there's 20 Japanese guys that are good enough
1120
02:00:35,620 --> 02:00:39,780
to be in the World Cup, well, if they've got sponsorship, then there's 20 Japanese guys in
1121
02:00:39,780 --> 02:00:48,820
the World Cup. That's fine. You know, it's almost embarrassing that we cull some of the top athletes
1122
02:00:48,820 --> 02:00:53,380
because there's so many good athletes from that country and then let in much lower athletes from
1123
02:00:53,380 --> 02:01:01,700
another country just to make quotas. So that would be the first thing I would do. And then the second
1124
02:01:01,700 --> 02:01:10,580
thing I would do would be I would massively raise entry fees. But the entry fees would go back into
1125
02:01:10,580 --> 02:01:17,460
the prize pool. If people want to compete, they're spending so much to go to these competitions
1126
02:01:17,460 --> 02:01:27,700
anyway. If you make entry to a World Cup $500 and you've got 120 guys competing, but the top 40 say
1127
02:01:27,700 --> 02:01:36,420
get paid and everyone's putting $500 in, you know, suddenly you've got a $70,000, $60,000 prize pool
1128
02:01:38,180 --> 02:01:43,940
that you can then go, okay, your winner gets $15,000, your second place gets $9,000, your third
1129
02:01:43,940 --> 02:01:50,900
gets $6,000. And you make sure that even the last cash gets more than the entry fee.
1130
02:01:54,340 --> 02:02:00,020
And I think that would just revolutionize the sport because it would make it,
1131
02:02:02,900 --> 02:02:10,100
one, it would make getting to the cash line more important. You know, if you get to the cash line,
1132
02:02:10,100 --> 02:02:14,740
you're going to get real money. You know, what's eighth place in a World Cup, 90 euro or something,
1133
02:02:14,740 --> 02:02:19,940
who cares? Yeah. Okay, great. So you flow in from
1134
02:02:22,020 --> 02:02:30,900
Great Britain to China. And it's cost you 2000 euros in flights, and 1000 euros in hotels,
1135
02:02:30,900 --> 02:02:42,820
and 500 euros in food. And you come eighth and they go, here's 90 euro. Where's the math in that?
1136
02:02:44,020 --> 02:02:53,060
Where's the logic? And I think if you get rid of the federations, now a lot of federations pay
1137
02:02:53,060 --> 02:02:57,060
their athletes, but a lot of federations don't pay their athletes. You get rid of the federations,
1138
02:02:57,060 --> 02:03:01,780
and instead you turn around to the climbing hold manufacturers, the gyms, the people with money.
1139
02:03:03,380 --> 02:03:07,300
And you say, look, we're a professional sport, it's about time you started putting in.
1140
02:03:08,340 --> 02:03:13,060
If you're touchstone climbing, and you've got 10 gyms through the country, you can afford to sponsor
1141
02:03:13,060 --> 02:03:22,580
half a dozen climbers. If you're boulder belt, or studio block, or climbing works, you can afford
1142
02:03:22,580 --> 02:03:29,060
to sponsor a climber or two. You know, they're effectively just an employee. You're just paying
1143
02:03:29,060 --> 02:03:36,260
them to compete for you rather than, because they're representing your brand, and an advertisement
1144
02:03:36,260 --> 02:03:43,380
for your brand. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So that would be the biggest change I'd put in place,
1145
02:03:44,180 --> 02:03:52,420
would be, I would take away federations, open up advertising, increase entry fees,
1146
02:03:52,420 --> 02:03:57,380
but increase prize money accordingly. So if you have a look at the first world to first
1147
02:03:58,500 --> 02:04:03,780
English, remember how to speak English. If you look at the first two World Cups this year,
1148
02:04:05,380 --> 02:04:12,660
okay, you had China, and you had the US, and you had half the climbers made the effort to go to China,
1149
02:04:13,300 --> 02:04:18,820
and the other half made the effort to go to the US. What does that mean? That means that
1150
02:04:18,820 --> 02:04:23,620
the World Cups have lost their mana, they've lost their value, they've lost their importance,
1151
02:04:23,620 --> 02:04:29,620
because it's not an economic, there's no economic incentive to make the effort to go.
1152
02:04:30,500 --> 02:04:36,660
Well, also the Olympics. Also the Olympics, but, well, that's another thing that we can crack on to,
1153
02:04:36,660 --> 02:04:46,020
but if it's 10,000 euros to win, and 6,000 for second, and 5,000 for third, or whatever,
1154
02:04:46,020 --> 02:04:56,740
are you going to go to the US? And if you then guarantee that you got all the athletes,
1155
02:04:56,740 --> 02:05:04,180
are you going to sell more tickets? And are you going to get better venues? You know, it's,
1156
02:05:06,100 --> 02:05:12,100
to me, climbing has a poverty mentality, everyone loves to tell you how bad they're doing.
1157
02:05:12,100 --> 02:05:19,540
If there's 20 million gym users around the world, and say 10 million of them own their own climbing
1158
02:05:19,540 --> 02:05:25,940
shoes, and say 5 million of them are buying more than one pair a year, that's a lot of money goes
1159
02:05:25,940 --> 02:05:31,220
into climbing shoes. So, okay, the climbing shoe companies can afford to sponsor some climbers.
1160
02:05:32,420 --> 02:05:36,580
Okay, if there's 20 million gym users a year, that's a lot of people paying membership, so
1161
02:05:36,580 --> 02:05:42,740
gyms can afford to sponsor some people, the hold companies can afford to sponsor some people. And,
1162
02:05:44,020 --> 02:05:49,220
you know, and then there's outside sponsors, who are really bad at external sponsors in climbing.
1163
02:05:49,940 --> 02:05:53,140
You look at all these sports, and they have all these wonderful corporate sponsors.
1164
02:05:54,020 --> 02:05:58,660
Who are the IFSC sponsors currently? I have no idea really.
1165
02:06:00,740 --> 02:06:05,060
For a couple years, they had Japan Airlines, but they don't appear to be here this year.
1166
02:06:05,060 --> 02:06:09,620
I haven't seen them here, they had Toyo tires, they don't appear to be here this year.
1167
02:06:09,620 --> 02:06:15,620
So there's all these things that we're not retaining sponsors, and if we're not retaining sponsors,
1168
02:06:15,620 --> 02:06:20,100
there's a problem. And if there's a problem, we need to work out what that problem is and fix it.
1169
02:06:21,540 --> 02:06:29,220
And, you know, I think that we need to look at a way of making
1170
02:06:29,220 --> 02:06:34,820
professional competition climbing a viable pathway for the athletes, so that they want to
1171
02:06:34,820 --> 02:06:41,620
professionally competition climb. And we need to give back the World Cup and the World Championships,
1172
02:06:41,620 --> 02:06:48,580
they're important, that the athletes are going to want to go to them. Because, you know, so I was
1173
02:06:48,580 --> 02:06:53,460
working on a book, and for mental health reasons, I shelved it, because it was very emotionally
1174
02:06:53,460 --> 02:07:01,060
draining. And the book was just a photo book of five years leading to the first Olympics.
1175
02:07:02,020 --> 02:07:08,900
And I was going to call it on the circuit, and then I actually changed the name to Before the Fall,
1176
02:07:10,580 --> 02:07:20,100
because I feel that competition climbing is falling. I feel that with the exception of Olympics,
1177
02:07:20,100 --> 02:07:26,740
World Cups and World Champs have lost their prestige. People are, you know, being the World
1178
02:07:26,740 --> 02:07:30,820
Champion used to be the most important thing, being the World Cup Champion used to be the second most
1179
02:07:30,820 --> 02:07:35,940
important thing, winning a World Cup used to be the third most important thing. Now, obviously,
1180
02:07:35,940 --> 02:07:40,740
winning the Olympics is the most important thing. And the other things have slid into a degree that
1181
02:07:40,740 --> 02:07:45,780
people won't even attend. Well, I guess I kind of want to see what happens next year after the
1182
02:07:45,780 --> 02:07:51,540
Olympics happens to see if it kind of gets that back, since it won't be an Olympic year.
1183
02:07:52,580 --> 02:07:57,700
Because we've we had a messed up Olympic schedule because of the delayed Tokyo Olympics. So we've
1184
02:07:57,700 --> 02:08:03,140
never had a proper cycle. So that is one thing that we have to look at. But I mean, I'll tell
1185
02:08:03,140 --> 02:08:08,180
you right now, if the prize money is not there, a lot of these athletes that have put so much into
1186
02:08:08,180 --> 02:08:13,940
going to the Olympics will probably take a year off. And I think that's the reason why we're
1187
02:08:13,940 --> 02:08:19,540
saying that. We'll probably take a year off, or at least a bunch of comps off. And then you left with
1188
02:08:19,540 --> 02:08:28,580
the same issue. You know, if you turn around to Yanya and said, Yanya, you've had a great season,
1189
02:08:28,580 --> 02:08:37,940
you've won five World Cups, you've made 10,000 euros. You turn around to her and said, Yanya,
1190
02:08:37,940 --> 02:08:42,180
next year, if you win that number of World Cups, you're going to have 70,000 euros.
1191
02:08:42,180 --> 02:08:44,260
That is a pretty big difference, actually.
1192
02:08:45,620 --> 02:08:51,380
So and we keep cannibalizing and internalizing our resources. You know, obviously, we need to
1193
02:08:51,380 --> 02:08:55,540
pay route setters, we need to pay venue hire, we need to pay all these things. I appreciate that.
1194
02:08:56,180 --> 02:09:00,820
Do we need to send the IFSC on holiday every year to a different part of the world for their
1195
02:09:00,820 --> 02:09:07,460
plenary assembly? Because, you know, they just were in Chile a couple of months ago. Last year,
1196
02:09:07,460 --> 02:09:11,540
they were in whatever part of the world. The year before that, they were in, was it the US?
1197
02:09:11,540 --> 02:09:17,780
I can't remember. And they fly their whole staff across, you know, 12, 13 people jump on a plane,
1198
02:09:18,820 --> 02:09:26,980
probably not all in economy. They bring in, you know, the members of the board from Japan
1199
02:09:26,980 --> 02:09:32,260
and the US or whatever, probably not an economy. They fly to these places, they probably don't stay
1200
02:09:32,260 --> 02:09:42,420
in a UFOstle. And they have a meeting, have they not heard of zoom? You know, we've got climbers
1201
02:09:42,420 --> 02:09:49,860
struggling to make ends meet. And they're probably spending 50,000 euros or more on a meeting.
1202
02:09:52,020 --> 02:10:00,900
You know, to me, that's fundamentally broken in the sport. To me, if we injected that 50,000
1203
02:10:00,900 --> 02:10:08,740
euro back into the sport, maybe we hire someone effective at sponsorship acquisition so that we
1204
02:10:08,740 --> 02:10:15,060
can get some recent sponsors. So for me, that's a huge thing. And the other thing,
1205
02:10:18,340 --> 02:10:25,620
and I know there's a lot of good people at the IFSC. I've worked with several, but
1206
02:10:25,620 --> 02:10:33,540
the IFSC has over the last several years picked up a lot of, quote unquote, middle management from
1207
02:10:33,540 --> 02:10:40,020
other sports, who I would say are not invested in climbing, they're just sports administrators.
1208
02:10:41,300 --> 02:10:46,260
But I would question whether they have our best interests at heart, or whether we're just a step
1209
02:10:46,260 --> 02:10:53,940
on the career progression for them. And I think that there's been some pretty poor
1210
02:10:53,940 --> 02:11:01,860
pretty poor acquisition or choices. Because they go look at such and such, he's really big in the
1211
02:11:01,860 --> 02:11:08,180
shooting world of a sailing world, or he ran an event once in boxing. And I was like, okay,
1212
02:11:08,180 --> 02:11:16,580
that's great. But do they understand our culture? But do they understand our ethos? And, you know,
1213
02:11:16,580 --> 02:11:22,820
there's nothing cheesier than reading the IFSC staff profiles, which are such and such is blah,
1214
02:11:22,820 --> 02:11:29,300
blah, blah. But now he's going to give climbing a try. It's like, you know, to me,
1215
02:11:31,220 --> 02:11:35,140
I feel like we've probably got many resources in climbing who were overlooking.
1216
02:11:36,180 --> 02:11:40,740
And we should be going back to our roots a bit and choosing people within the sport.
1217
02:11:41,300 --> 02:11:50,180
You know, there are some incredibly wealthy people who climb, and who represent major companies.
1218
02:11:50,180 --> 02:11:55,940
And are we engaging them to talk about sponsorship or talk to what they can give back to the sport?
1219
02:11:56,340 --> 02:12:03,060
Not that I know of. You know, we literally in Vale have people flying in on private jets to watch
1220
02:12:03,860 --> 02:12:09,860
the GoPro games. You know, we have people worth literal billions of dollars. We have Jared Leto
1221
02:12:09,860 --> 02:12:16,580
in the front row. And wait, what? Yes, I can send you photos. The actor dude, he's a get.
1222
02:12:16,580 --> 02:12:24,500
Wait, does he climb? Yeah. Oh, I had no idea. Yeah. You know, we'd love to see those photos.
1223
02:12:24,500 --> 02:12:29,220
Yeah, you got Jason Momoa is a big climbing fan. I'm sure he's got contacts. Why aren't we
1224
02:12:29,220 --> 02:12:34,500
utilizing these contacts to get the brands who can provide some sponsorship, the sponsorships
1225
02:12:34,500 --> 02:12:44,740
then pay for the events. And then the event organizers can hunt money for prizes. And then
1226
02:12:44,740 --> 02:12:52,340
the event organizers can hunt money for prize giving. Hunt money for, you know, because if you
1227
02:12:52,340 --> 02:12:57,700
get if you raise the money for athletes, but in disc golf, and yes, I know disc golf, they
1228
02:12:58,820 --> 02:13:04,100
do what's called added cash, which is the event has to give money to prize money on top of the
1229
02:13:04,100 --> 02:13:12,660
entry fees. So if they if the event gets $50,000 in entry fees, the event then has to put in
1230
02:13:12,660 --> 02:13:24,260
$50,000 of its own towards prize money. So, you know, I think I always described the IFC I had
1231
02:13:24,260 --> 02:13:30,740
like an analogy. It's a little bit outdated now because everyone shops online, sorry. But I always
1232
02:13:30,740 --> 02:13:38,580
said, you know, it's like, can you imagine walking into a mobile phone shop? Really nice mobile
1233
02:13:38,580 --> 02:13:42,100
phone shop, you've got all the different brands, you got all the different models over different
1234
02:13:42,100 --> 02:13:52,420
handsets. And the IFC own the phone shop. And you walk in and the athletes are the phones. And every
1235
02:13:52,420 --> 02:13:56,180
phone is unique. And every phone does something different. And every phone has different strengths
1236
02:13:56,180 --> 02:14:05,940
and weaknesses. And you say to the IFC, Hey, I want a phone. And they go, Look at our pretty shop.
1237
02:14:05,940 --> 02:14:10,020
Isn't our shop pretty? Look at our new walls. Look at this. Look at that. And you're like,
1238
02:14:10,020 --> 02:14:14,900
Yeah, but what about the phones? Well, we got a really good new computer system here. Look at
1239
02:14:14,900 --> 02:14:20,180
this. Yeah, but what about the phones? You know, the athletes who are the phones are not the
1240
02:14:20,180 --> 02:14:27,460
priority is everything else is the priority. And the IFC has to be athlete first. So yeah, for me,
1241
02:14:27,460 --> 02:14:34,740
it's so incredibly important that we are an athlete focused sport. And I do feel that that
1242
02:14:34,740 --> 02:14:39,860
is not what we appear to be because we're not looking after the athletes. We're not giving them
1243
02:14:39,860 --> 02:14:47,300
a viable financially viable option to exist in the world. We're not letting them be professionals.
1244
02:14:47,300 --> 02:14:53,620
We're not letting them make a living. We're relying on them scrounging, doing GoFundMe pages,
1245
02:14:54,420 --> 02:15:01,380
leeching off their parents, because it's not a sustainable model. That's not, you know, I,
1246
02:15:01,380 --> 02:15:08,740
I would love to see the whole IFC board gone and half the staff gone, purely because I think that
1247
02:15:08,740 --> 02:15:14,260
we need new blood. I think that they did a really great job establishing the sport. But I think
1248
02:15:14,260 --> 02:15:21,140
that we're now at a place in our progression where we actually need people coming in who afford
1249
02:15:21,140 --> 02:15:29,860
thinking and have the right focus on the future. And I don't think that the board, as it stands,
1250
02:15:29,860 --> 02:15:33,700
can stand there and say, well, look at what we've done over the last however many years
1251
02:15:34,980 --> 02:15:38,660
to do this. All they've done over the last however many years is basically Olympics and
1252
02:15:38,660 --> 02:15:44,260
everything else is secondary. There's been train wrecks every year, whether it be R-Skate,
1253
02:15:44,260 --> 02:15:49,940
or the Alana Farber, whether it be Red S, whether it be whatever, you know, climbing's great at
1254
02:15:49,940 --> 02:15:54,580
making it into the news for all the wrong reasons. I think some people won't know that reference.
1255
02:15:54,580 --> 02:15:59,620
Those that do do, those that don't don't. But climbing's great for making it into the news
1256
02:15:59,620 --> 02:16:03,060
for all the wrong reasons. Well, maybe we need to change those bloody reasons.
1257
02:16:03,060 --> 02:16:09,780
Yeah, it sounds like sponsors is probably one of the biggest things. I guess I'm not as sure about
1258
02:16:11,060 --> 02:16:17,700
having athletes pay more for entrance. Because like, obviously, a lot of them are already
1259
02:16:17,700 --> 02:16:25,380
struggling. And I think the IFSC also tries to do stuff with like, universality and like trying to
1260
02:16:25,380 --> 02:16:30,820
get athletes from smaller countries who maybe don't have as much opportunity to compete at a
1261
02:16:30,820 --> 02:16:37,380
high level. And that might kind of make it difficult for those athletes to get a chance
1262
02:16:37,860 --> 02:16:42,500
and that experience. I mean, I hear that. But I think if you've got the money coming into the
1263
02:16:42,500 --> 02:16:49,300
sport, then you have more opportunities to then take some of that money into development programs.
1264
02:16:50,820 --> 02:16:54,740
I think, you know, from the start, I think that there's just not enough money coming into the
1265
02:16:54,740 --> 02:17:02,180
sport. For the size of the sport, for the viewership, for the global reach of the sport,
1266
02:17:02,180 --> 02:17:09,300
I think that we're not achieving our goals financially. And so yeah, I'd like to see
1267
02:17:09,300 --> 02:17:16,500
yeah, maybe the raised entry fee isn't the right way, but I'd like to see in some way.
1268
02:17:18,020 --> 02:17:23,700
And this is why people much more intelligent than myself are employed into these positions to
1269
02:17:24,740 --> 02:17:29,140
come up with solutions. Well, I mean, I think those are kind of the best solutions I've heard
1270
02:17:29,140 --> 02:17:33,540
so far. So most people, yeah, I think
1271
02:17:33,540 --> 02:17:38,580
everyone knows that there should be more money coming into comp climbing, but no one really knows
1272
02:17:38,580 --> 02:17:45,380
a way of how to do it. So yeah, I think sponsors. Yeah. And at an athlete level, sponsoring an
1273
02:17:45,380 --> 02:17:54,980
athlete for a year, if you're a gym is the equivalent of an employee. And, you know, that's
1274
02:17:55,700 --> 02:18:00,100
because then if I also have a shoe sponsor, if I also have a shoe sponsor, I can't do it.
1275
02:18:00,100 --> 02:18:05,300
You know, that's because then if I also have a shoe sponsor, if I also have some apparel sponsors,
1276
02:18:05,300 --> 02:18:10,660
guess what? Between the three, they're covered. You know, I know,
1277
02:18:13,300 --> 02:18:21,540
I know, like multiple World Cup winners who were getting offered like $3,000 shoe deals.
1278
02:18:21,540 --> 02:18:33,300
And that's just a joke. You know, I know, one of the very good climbers who was sponsored by a
1279
02:18:33,300 --> 02:18:40,660
pretty major shoe company and they're getting $26,000 a year. And that's still not even a wage.
1280
02:18:42,340 --> 02:18:47,620
And if you are spending $20,000 a year on travel, that's leaving you $6,000 a year to live.
1281
02:18:47,620 --> 02:18:54,180
So you're grafting, you're having to coach, to rely on your parents, to
1282
02:18:54,980 --> 02:19:00,180
rely on your partner, whatever it may be. You know, how many professional climbers are actually
1283
02:19:00,180 --> 02:19:11,380
living comfortably? And that's, if the answer is, I would say if the answer is more than 20%
1284
02:19:11,380 --> 02:19:18,900
I would say if the answer is more than 20% out of climbing, I would be surprised.
1285
02:19:19,940 --> 02:19:24,980
And I'd say if the answer is less than 80%, it's unacceptable.
1286
02:19:28,820 --> 02:19:31,780
Because the answer should be 80%, but I think we're less than 20%.
1287
02:19:31,780 --> 02:19:41,060
So to me, there's a big disconnect that has to be addressed. And
1288
02:19:43,540 --> 02:19:48,660
yeah, as I said, I do feel that the current board has done a lot of work, but
1289
02:19:50,420 --> 02:19:56,180
how long do their 10 years need to be before you go, let's bring in someone refreshed by,
1290
02:19:56,180 --> 02:19:59,300
I'd like to see some guys from IFSC Europe, for instance, step up.
1291
02:19:59,300 --> 02:20:02,500
Because I feel like they're more energetic, younger, forward thinking.
1292
02:20:03,700 --> 02:20:10,500
You know, it was obviously a huge, it's a tragedy, the invasion of Ukraine by Russia, which is
1293
02:20:11,300 --> 02:20:15,780
a terrible, terrible thing. And because of that, I had to make a hard choice
1294
02:20:16,740 --> 02:20:20,900
not to publicize Russian climbing or anything to do with Russian climbing on my social media.
1295
02:20:21,940 --> 02:20:24,180
And one of the things at a personal level that
1296
02:20:24,180 --> 02:20:29,620
is inconsequential compared to the actual depth and breadth of the conflict, but to me was I
1297
02:20:29,620 --> 02:20:34,500
always wanted Dmitry Bishkov, president of Russia climbing to be the next head of the IFSC.
1298
02:20:35,380 --> 02:20:37,860
Because if you look at what he's done for climbers in Russia,
1299
02:20:40,180 --> 02:20:47,140
so, so much, you know, he was a younger guy with vision who grew the sport from the doldrums in
1300
02:20:47,140 --> 02:20:52,180
Russia into a major sport. And now obviously, that can't be now, but he's a young guy,
1301
02:20:52,180 --> 02:20:59,540
and now obviously that can't be now because of global politics. But, you know, Heiko Wilhelm
1302
02:20:59,540 --> 02:21:07,460
is another one who I think could step into a role like that and really excel. His name slips me
1303
02:21:07,460 --> 02:21:12,900
right now, but the ex head of Austria climbing before Heiko, Michael, Michael Schimpf, like,
1304
02:21:14,580 --> 02:21:19,140
I would love to see someone like him given the reins of the IFSC and told to run with it.
1305
02:21:19,140 --> 02:21:28,260
Because I think they would revolutionize it. You know, I don't have a lot of time or respect for
1306
02:21:30,900 --> 02:21:37,940
many people in the board or in the workings of the IFSC because I think that they're squandering
1307
02:21:37,940 --> 02:21:42,580
opportunities. And I think that they're doing more damage control than development.
1308
02:21:42,580 --> 02:21:50,100
So I guess that kind of transitions into one of the discord questions. I guess we can kind of move
1309
02:21:50,100 --> 02:21:58,340
into that. Just like the last couple of questions, since we're running on time. One of the questions
1310
02:21:58,340 --> 02:22:03,540
that came in was, do you think it's possible that there could or should be an alternative to the IFSC?
1311
02:22:04,420 --> 02:22:08,180
And is that something that's viable or would like maybe be better?
1312
02:22:08,180 --> 02:22:16,180
So 100%. And something that had been discussed at an informal level prior to COVID.
1313
02:22:19,380 --> 02:22:22,180
Some of us had said it would be great if you had
1314
02:22:25,300 --> 02:22:29,220
unofficial or less official or whatever you care to call it alternative series
1315
02:22:29,220 --> 02:22:36,420
that was based around StudioBlock, Kwiff, DocMasters, and so on.
1316
02:22:36,420 --> 02:22:46,340
DocMasters, North Face Cup in Japan, Dark Horse, for instance, in the US, where you amalgamated
1317
02:22:46,340 --> 02:22:51,460
a bunch of existing independent comps and said you can run the comps as you run them,
1318
02:22:52,580 --> 02:22:57,380
but we want to make it part of a global series and make it attractive for international athletes to
1319
02:22:57,380 --> 02:23:02,900
attend because not only are they attending these comps as out of season training, but they're
1320
02:23:02,900 --> 02:23:08,820
attending these comps as something which has a cumulative outcome for them.
1321
02:23:12,180 --> 02:23:17,140
I think the other thing that I'd love to see us get back to, and sorry, I know this is a slight
1322
02:23:17,140 --> 02:23:22,740
tangent, is I'd love to see the seasons separated properly again. I'd love to see a bolder season
1323
02:23:23,940 --> 02:23:30,100
and a lead season. And speed can go wherever, but I'd probably put speed in the middle. It'd be
1324
02:23:30,100 --> 02:23:36,260
bolder speed lead through the year, and then you could have independent comps outside of that
1325
02:23:36,260 --> 02:23:42,660
season, but that way the athletes can train and peak specifically for the events in those
1326
02:23:42,660 --> 02:23:49,620
disciplines and there's no overlap. Now I know obviously with the Olympics, and I'm not the fan
1327
02:23:49,620 --> 02:23:54,820
of Olympics list, let me make that very clear. I think Olympics is one of the worst things that's
1328
02:23:54,820 --> 02:24:05,700
ever happened to the sport, but I think that that has broken the individual disciplines because of
1329
02:24:05,700 --> 02:24:12,740
the combined aspect, which is my problem with the Olympics. Well, I mean they're working towards it
1330
02:24:12,740 --> 02:24:19,540
at least. I know they're working towards it, but from a personal level I would have preferred us
1331
02:24:19,540 --> 02:24:26,100
not to be in the Olympics until we could provide the product we wanted to the Olympics, rather than
1332
02:24:26,100 --> 02:24:35,460
us create a mongrelized product that really didn't represent the sport at its peak. It was a bit
1333
02:24:35,460 --> 02:24:40,580
embarrassing watching the lead climbers and speed in Tokyo and the speed climbers in Boulder at Tokyo
1334
02:24:40,580 --> 02:24:47,860
sort of thing. Oh, but I love seeing that. See, I didn't. I wanted to see the best speed. I would
1335
02:24:47,860 --> 02:24:54,660
have been much happier if Olympics had just been speed initially, to see the best in the world at
1336
02:24:54,660 --> 02:25:01,060
a discipline representing themselves as the best at the world. Asking climbers to be something
1337
02:25:01,060 --> 02:25:07,060
they're not, asking boulders to lead climb and vice versa, I still don't think is a
1338
02:25:09,220 --> 02:25:10,100
clean solution.
1339
02:25:10,100 --> 02:25:15,860
I hate the fact that they changed combined as much as I don't like combined, because for the sake of
1340
02:25:15,860 --> 02:25:20,820
continuity, whoever wins this Olympics is won a different format to the last Olympics. So what
1341
02:25:20,820 --> 02:25:25,700
happens to LA? Do we then have a fair, you know, if we get all three disciplines is it then a
1342
02:25:25,700 --> 02:25:34,340
different, the whole thing, I think we were too busy desperately trying to fit in, rather than
1343
02:25:34,340 --> 02:25:39,940
standing our ground and saying this is our value as a sport. And this is what we represent. Yeah,
1344
02:25:39,940 --> 02:25:45,860
I guess I'm not sure their perspective or what happened behind the scenes. But I guess I was
1345
02:25:45,860 --> 02:25:51,060
assuming it was either you only get one medal or just like, don't even bother like it's not gonna
1346
02:25:51,060 --> 02:25:56,420
happen. And as I said, personally, I would have preferred that to have been speed. Well, I think
1347
02:25:56,420 --> 02:26:01,140
because it's the easiest idea to believe in those things, but I think it's the best way to
1348
02:26:01,140 --> 02:26:06,100
think about it. Because it's the easiest idea to believe in those disciplines. And I'm not actually
1349
02:26:06,100 --> 02:26:14,740
a huge fan of modern speed. I would have preferred that to just showcase the best speed climbers in
1350
02:26:14,740 --> 02:26:25,620
the world, rather than showcase a bunch, you know, it'd be like, it'd be like taking a bunch of the
1351
02:26:25,620 --> 02:26:31,700
best track and field athletes in the world and making them do decathlon, but they're not decathletes.
1352
02:26:32,500 --> 02:26:37,540
Yeah. So it'd be like saying, well, yeah, you got to do shot put and long jump and hurdles and
1353
02:26:37,540 --> 02:26:42,980
running. Oh, but you're a javelin throw. Well, too bad. That's what you got to do these. I feel like
1354
02:26:42,980 --> 02:26:48,500
their thought process was like a foot in the door technique. Like, we get all three and then because
1355
02:26:48,500 --> 02:26:52,980
if it's just speed, then they could just be like, well, we already gave you speed. Why do you need
1356
02:26:52,980 --> 02:27:00,820
more? Yeah. Yeah. I understand the argument. I just don't think that the solution was attractive.
1357
02:27:03,140 --> 02:27:09,220
I think that, and I think that the damage is done to the World Cup Series and the World Champs
1358
02:27:09,220 --> 02:27:15,060
actually counterweighs any benefit. Yes, a few athletes have done extraordinarily well out of it,
1359
02:27:15,060 --> 02:27:20,900
but the vast majority of athletes have probably regressed from it. Do you think it'll go back to
1360
02:27:20,900 --> 02:27:25,540
normal once everything's split out into three different disciplines in the Olympics?
1361
02:27:27,140 --> 02:27:32,660
I don't know how long we'll be in the Olympics. Like you think we'll get removed? Well, I can see
1362
02:27:32,660 --> 02:27:37,540
us being in LA because LA, you know, the US has a strong climbing culture and they have our
1363
02:27:38,100 --> 02:27:46,580
athletes that are relevant for medals. Are we going to be in Brisbane in 2032? Are we not? I
1364
02:27:46,580 --> 02:27:51,140
didn't know that was an option to not be in it anymore. Well, this is the question. Like
1365
02:27:51,860 --> 02:27:56,500
how many strong climbers does Australia have? By then, will Campbell and Osh still be around? Will
1366
02:27:56,500 --> 02:28:02,020
the next generation be medal prospects? Does Australia want to spend hundreds of thousands
1367
02:28:02,020 --> 02:28:05,220
of dollars building a climbing stadium for a sport that they won't do well in?
1368
02:28:06,660 --> 02:28:10,420
We're still a French sport. As far as I'm aware, we're not a core sport yet.
1369
02:28:10,420 --> 02:28:16,660
Oh really? Well, I guess I kind of thought once you get into the Olympics, you kind of just
1370
02:28:16,660 --> 02:28:25,220
stay there. Like they don't remove sports, do they? No, they can. They can do. And so that's the thing.
1371
02:28:26,100 --> 02:28:35,380
If Olympics disappears after three Olympics, was it worth it? I desperately hope that we make it
1372
02:28:35,380 --> 02:28:43,060
for Brisbane. I think that once you've done three, you should pretty much be a core sport,
1373
02:28:43,060 --> 02:28:46,500
but I'm not sure how that works with us changing the format of the sport every time.
1374
02:28:47,220 --> 02:28:56,260
Oh, interesting. There's layers of politics and complexities behind this that I'm not okay with.
1375
02:28:56,260 --> 02:29:04,180
And so I can't give an expert opinion, but I can definitely see challenges. I mean, ideally, yes,
1376
02:29:04,180 --> 02:29:11,220
I'd love to see three disciplines competing for three medals, and I'd love to see
1377
02:29:12,580 --> 02:29:19,380
the World Cups giving back their relevance because people aren't having to sacrifice
1378
02:29:19,380 --> 02:29:21,780
to train for something that isn't their priority.
1379
02:29:21,780 --> 02:29:26,020
So that they're better in Olympic qualifier, but it's also going to change the sport going forward
1380
02:29:26,020 --> 02:29:31,860
because back in the day, a young boulder coming up was a young boulder, a young league climber was a
1381
02:29:31,860 --> 02:29:37,700
young league climber and so on. Now the cross pollination of skills from this, you always had
1382
02:29:37,700 --> 02:29:42,260
some multi-discipline athletes, but now you've got more than ever. So is that a good thing? I don't
1383
02:29:42,260 --> 02:29:47,300
know. Maybe it is. I won't lie. You probably won't find anyone less interested in
1384
02:29:47,300 --> 02:29:55,140
this year's Olympics than me because I am quite jaded by the impact that the Olympics has had on
1385
02:29:55,780 --> 02:30:04,820
the World Cups. And so I'm pretty anti. I hope the athletes do well. I hope the athletes have a
1386
02:30:04,820 --> 02:30:09,700
wonderful time. I hope the athletes and the presentation of the sport really sells the sport
1387
02:30:09,700 --> 02:30:18,980
to a broader audience and grows it. But I, at a personal level, am less engaged in it than I am
1388
02:30:18,980 --> 02:30:25,940
in a lot of other events. So, you know, I still think it's a lottery. I still think the scoring
1389
02:30:25,940 --> 02:30:32,020
system leaves a lot to be desired. I still think the selection process is ridiculous. I think that
1390
02:30:32,020 --> 02:30:37,620
this close to Olympics, when you have however many athletes, you know, you have to be very
1391
02:30:37,620 --> 02:30:41,620
focused on the Olympics when you have however many athletes don't even know if they're going to be in
1392
02:30:41,620 --> 02:30:50,740
yet. So how is their training cycles going? I think it's way too close to the Olympics for these guys
1393
02:30:50,740 --> 02:30:56,100
to be still trying to qualify in. They should have known six months ago. The IFSC always seems to
1394
02:30:57,540 --> 02:31:02,100
struggle with these things. And, you know, I don't say this as a hater, but I'm going to use the
1395
02:31:02,100 --> 02:31:08,900
Youth Olympics as an example. Youth Olympics was the first time they had, in Buenos Aires,
1396
02:31:08,900 --> 02:31:14,820
first time they had skating was the first time they had freestyle BMX, all these other sports.
1397
02:31:15,620 --> 02:31:25,620
So they, all the sports brought demonstration athletes who were top adults to do demos in front
1398
02:31:25,620 --> 02:31:32,100
of the youth. So skating had Tony Hawk and Leticia Bafoni, two of the best skaters in the world.
1399
02:31:33,220 --> 02:31:37,860
BMX had incredible dude from Australia called Logan won the gold at Olympics. And I can't
1400
02:31:37,860 --> 02:31:43,060
remember the other person's name, incredible athletes. We had Josh Levin and Charlotte Gereff.
1401
02:31:44,740 --> 02:31:51,060
So, you know, why did we not have Adam Ondra or Alex Honnold or
1402
02:31:51,060 --> 02:31:55,540
Sean O'Coxie or someone like that? And they were both good climbers in their own way,
1403
02:31:55,540 --> 02:32:01,620
but they weren't World Cup winners. They were just good climbers. They were, you know, Charlotte
1404
02:32:01,620 --> 02:32:10,420
Gereff was, and Josh were athlete representatives, but they weren't the top, they weren't Tony Hawk.
1405
02:32:10,980 --> 02:32:17,860
Yeah. You know, when they had the exhibitions on for the sports, and they had Tony Hawk and
1406
02:32:17,860 --> 02:32:22,260
Leticia Bafoni out on the skate ramp and there were thousands of people around watching,
1407
02:32:22,740 --> 02:32:27,140
when they had the exhibition on for climbing, there wasn't thousands of people.
1408
02:32:28,740 --> 02:32:35,140
So, you know, that sort of thing seems to just be the prerequisite short sightedness that I just
1409
02:32:35,140 --> 02:32:39,780
don't, when you're watching it, you're like, how did they miss this opportunity?
1410
02:32:41,620 --> 02:32:45,780
So yeah, that's, but that's just me. I'm, you know, I'm a grumpy old man at times,
1411
02:32:45,780 --> 02:32:50,500
a bit cantankerous. I mean, now they're trying with Alex Honnold, so maybe they've learned some
1412
02:32:50,500 --> 02:32:55,060
lessons. I thought that was a huge step in the right direction. And I won't lie, I was incredibly
1413
02:32:55,060 --> 02:33:02,980
impressed by his commentary. I thought he was just unfiltered enough to do an excellent job in
1414
02:33:02,980 --> 02:33:10,260
co-commentary. Got the personality for it. Well, I was surprised because I've only met him in passing
1415
02:33:10,260 --> 02:33:14,100
a couple of times over the last decade. And obviously I'm not friends with him, so because
1416
02:33:14,100 --> 02:33:19,620
I've only met him a couple of times and he didn't really come across as Mr. Personality, but.
1417
02:33:20,740 --> 02:33:22,260
He turns it on for the camera, I guess.
1418
02:33:22,260 --> 02:33:26,900
He turns it on for the camera. He's obviously savvy enough and sharp enough, but yeah, I was,
1419
02:33:27,700 --> 02:33:28,900
I was very impressed.
1420
02:33:28,900 --> 02:33:36,100
Yeah. Okay. One last question. I think we'll harken it back to the climbing photography
1421
02:33:36,980 --> 02:33:42,900
come full circle. What are the differences between competition climbing photography and
1422
02:33:42,900 --> 02:33:53,620
photography for other types of climbing, just like small gym climbing or alpine sport, trad stuff,
1423
02:33:53,620 --> 02:33:54,820
if you've done it.
1424
02:33:54,820 --> 02:34:00,420
Well, obviously I haven't done alpine. I quite like being alive.
1425
02:34:01,860 --> 02:34:02,340
I agree.
1426
02:34:02,340 --> 02:34:10,260
I refuse to photograph soloing. Even high ball bouldering can be uncomfortable because I have
1427
02:34:10,260 --> 02:34:17,140
had instances where climbers have had camera courage and have gotten over their heads and got
1428
02:34:17,140 --> 02:34:22,500
hurt because they've wanted to do something because they know a good photographer's there
1429
02:34:22,500 --> 02:34:26,900
and they think it would be a great photo, but they end up getting into a position they're not
1430
02:34:26,900 --> 02:34:31,380
really capable of getting out of. And that's pretty uncomfortable. So I drew a line in the sand
1431
02:34:31,380 --> 02:34:36,260
personally under that, that I wasn't, wasn't going to do photos like that.
1432
02:34:36,260 --> 02:34:45,460
Obviously one of the big differences is outdoor boulders. You've got a range of different
1433
02:34:45,460 --> 02:34:52,660
perspectives, outdoor routes the same. One of the major hindrances is they tend to be in public
1434
02:34:52,660 --> 02:34:58,740
areas. And so it's incredible how messy climbers can be. So you're up on a rope shooting down on
1435
02:34:58,740 --> 02:35:03,380
someone on a hard route and it looks like a tip on the ground because climbers have emptied their
1436
02:35:03,380 --> 02:35:08,900
bags everywhere. And so you're trying to like take clean photos without showing that there's
1437
02:35:08,900 --> 02:35:17,780
down jackets and rope mats and samler drappers and everything everywhere. That's actually one of the
1438
02:35:17,780 --> 02:35:22,340
bigger challenges for me shooting outside is that if you've got a background, you have to try and
1439
02:35:22,340 --> 02:35:29,060
ensure that the background is clean. Conditions can be pretty character building because good
1440
02:35:29,060 --> 02:35:41,460
climbing conditions can be horrible. Oh, I hate it. Yeah. Like it's cold. It's misery. I shot
1441
02:35:43,860 --> 02:35:52,420
Nathan Phillips on Voyager. And so I'd just been in Bishop shooting for a while and Bishop was about
1442
02:35:52,420 --> 02:35:59,780
10, 15 below freezing. But it was the desert. So it was actually quite comfortable because as long
1443
02:35:59,780 --> 02:36:04,580
as you had a down jacket on and thermals, you were, you know, it was very dry air and quite
1444
02:36:04,580 --> 02:36:12,900
comfortable. Then I went to Sheffield and Nathan had just done Voyager. So I went wanted to get
1445
02:36:12,900 --> 02:36:19,460
some photos on that because it was this legendary Ben Moon boulder. Beautiful looks on it. And so
1446
02:36:19,460 --> 02:36:28,660
legendary Ben Moon boulder, beautiful looks out over Burbage. And it was about six degrees Celsius,
1447
02:36:28,660 --> 02:36:39,620
about 42, 44 Fahrenheit. But it was humid and windy and we're wearing everything we owned. And we went
1448
02:36:40,580 --> 02:36:44,420
warmed up in the gym, drove up there within 40 minutes, we had to leave because we were
1449
02:36:44,420 --> 02:36:51,060
freezing solid. And it was just grim. And you know, he's stripping down to a t shirt and pants to
1450
02:36:51,060 --> 02:36:54,980
get on the climb. And then as soon as he's off, he's racking up and everything, beanie back on.
1451
02:36:55,700 --> 02:37:00,900
And it's just the conditions can be, you know, the guy's doing Burden of Dreams last winter,
1452
02:37:00,900 --> 02:37:05,860
the conditions there just for Will and that looks crisp, crisp, very crisp.
1453
02:37:06,900 --> 02:37:13,060
Wait, so quick detour question. Does this happen after they already do the climb and then they just
1454
02:37:13,060 --> 02:37:19,460
like take photos pretending like they're doing the climb or? Totally depends. I prefer to get
1455
02:37:20,020 --> 02:37:27,380
actual attempts. That's the goal is to get actual attempts. But sometimes for a sponsor or something,
1456
02:37:27,380 --> 02:37:32,820
they might say, Oh, can you get photos after the fact? Or for instance, it depends on as well,
1457
02:37:32,820 --> 02:37:42,740
the climber. So Jimmy Webb was trying the game in Boulder Canyon, which is a legendary hard Daniel
1458
02:37:42,740 --> 02:37:49,940
problem. I think it's Daniel. Sorry to whoever sent it first, if it wasn't Daniel. And I said,
1459
02:37:49,940 --> 02:37:54,580
Hey, can I take photos of you on it? And he said, No, look, while I'm working it, I'd rather not
1460
02:37:54,580 --> 02:38:00,900
because it adds pressure and respect. So I left him to it. About half an hour later, he drove up
1461
02:38:00,900 --> 02:38:04,900
and said, I've just done that. Can you come down and take photos of me on it? So I then went back
1462
02:38:04,900 --> 02:38:14,340
and took photos of him on it just after he'd done it. flipside, for instance, Rustam Galmanoff,
1463
02:38:14,340 --> 02:38:19,220
when he did the second attempt to second ascend of hypnotized minds, which is a very hard Daniel v
1464
02:38:19,220 --> 02:38:26,580
16 in Rocky Mountain National Park. And we were there for the whole process. I took photos right
1465
02:38:26,580 --> 02:38:32,340
through. But I actually when I went, he's gonna send now, I actually flipped a video and videoed
1466
02:38:32,340 --> 02:38:37,220
the scene because I was like, well, that's gonna stop anyone going, Oh, well, did he really do it?
1467
02:38:37,220 --> 02:38:41,700
Well, you know, so even though I'm not a videographer, I'm definitely a photographer.
1468
02:38:41,700 --> 02:38:46,180
I flipped a video just for the scene, which was reasonably clean video until he gets to the top.
1469
02:38:46,180 --> 02:38:50,820
And I'm shouting, Can someone put mats under the top out and scurrying backwards to get out of the
1470
02:38:50,820 --> 02:38:56,900
way? So the video goes a bit average then. But um, yeah, you're trying to take photos of them while
1471
02:38:56,900 --> 02:39:03,220
they're doing it. But it comes down to the climber. Some of them. Yeah, just a bit. You know,
1472
02:39:03,220 --> 02:39:09,860
the outdoor climbers can be, you know, outdoor climbing is being an elite outdoor climber can
1473
02:39:09,860 --> 02:39:14,980
be freaking grim. Because you got to go to these out of the way places, wait days for the right
1474
02:39:14,980 --> 02:39:19,860
conditions, have a couple of attempts, split it up, go back to your Airbnb or whatever, wait days
1475
02:39:19,860 --> 02:39:24,580
again for the conditions, go out, split another two, you know, it's, it's not a glamorous life.
1476
02:39:24,580 --> 02:39:35,380
It's pretty dedicated. But it actually reminds me of a fun Will Bosse story. We were in Innsbruck
1477
02:39:37,220 --> 02:39:46,180
for World Championships. And some guys came up. And I was standing with the English boys and they
1478
02:39:46,180 --> 02:39:51,140
said, Are you Eddie from the circuit? And I said, Yeah. And they said, Can we get a photo with you,
1479
02:39:51,140 --> 02:39:57,300
which was embarrassing because I was standing next to Nathan Phillips and Jim Pope and Will
1480
02:39:57,300 --> 02:40:00,900
Bosse. And I said, Well, no, take a photo of these guys. I'm just a photographer. These guys are
1481
02:40:00,900 --> 02:40:05,060
stars. And I was like, Oh, no, we always followed your photos. Can we get a photo of you? Wow.
1482
02:40:05,060 --> 02:40:09,460
So it's like, only if you have the other guys in the photo. So I got I made sure that it was me
1483
02:40:09,460 --> 02:40:16,180
and the good climbers in the photo. And they didn't care at all about the climbers. Well,
1484
02:40:16,180 --> 02:40:20,740
they didn't know who they were because they were just random Brits. Oh, okay. Yeah. Um,
1485
02:40:20,740 --> 02:40:24,660
you know, these are German kids and they didn't know who any of these guys were. And I'm
1486
02:40:24,660 --> 02:40:29,540
now sure that if they look at those photos now, they're like, Look, I got a photo of Will Bosse
1487
02:40:30,820 --> 02:40:36,100
because he remembers who I am. I'm gone. I'm old news. But they're probably far more excited
1488
02:40:36,100 --> 02:40:42,580
that Will Bosse is in the photo. But that was a cool trip because after that, we went to
1489
02:40:42,580 --> 02:40:53,300
Adidas Rockstars. And we he climbed there, I took photos. And then we were going to come back down
1490
02:40:53,300 --> 02:41:00,500
and train in Munich for a week and then drive down to Cran for the World Cup in Slovenia. But
1491
02:41:00,900 --> 02:41:05,700
it was Oktoberfest. So there was no room in Munich. All the hotels were basically full.
1492
02:41:05,700 --> 02:41:10,500
So we drove down to Magic Wood and just I said, Hey, do you want to go bouldering instead? So I
1493
02:41:10,500 --> 02:41:14,340
drove him down to Magic Wood and he jumped on he did practice it for a while. And while we were
1494
02:41:14,340 --> 02:41:21,540
there, Felipe Camargo, Vadim Timonov, Dave Graham, Giuliana Camilini, all working practice.
1495
02:41:22,420 --> 02:41:29,140
And Will, who's pretty much unknown at this stage, just walks it in like three days. Like,
1496
02:41:30,020 --> 02:41:35,860
which was just, I mean, hard v15 outdoors, a bunch of the best outdoor guys in the world trying it.
1497
02:41:35,860 --> 02:41:42,420
This young kid just shows up and and then we drove down to Slovenia and from memory made finals. So
1498
02:41:42,420 --> 02:41:49,620
it was a good, good warmup. Okay. But it's been excellent watching his progression as a climber.
1499
02:41:49,620 --> 02:41:57,140
He's a absolute hero. It's a legendary hard man. Yeah, honestly, I didn't know he did competitions.
1500
02:41:57,860 --> 02:42:03,460
He was very good at competitions. Interesting to know. And lead competitions, even though
1501
02:42:03,460 --> 02:42:08,740
he's a very good boulder, he's a very good lead competitor. I had no idea. So yeah, he's made a
1502
02:42:08,740 --> 02:42:15,380
bunch of finals. So I made finals in Chamonix as well. And yeah, well, that's the problem of you
1503
02:42:15,380 --> 02:42:20,980
youngsters. I know, I gotta look back. But there's just, there's just so many. There's just so many
1504
02:42:20,980 --> 02:42:26,100
and COVID was such a speed bump and a lot of people changed their priorities and their,
1505
02:42:26,100 --> 02:42:33,140
their futures. And then yeah, that was like, there's like a COVID, pre-COVID period and a
1506
02:42:33,140 --> 02:42:39,700
post-COVID period and the sport has changed hugely. You know, I've been, except for coaching,
1507
02:42:39,700 --> 02:42:48,020
I've been off the road internationally since COVID. And it's funny when you watch it now,
1508
02:42:48,020 --> 02:42:56,260
it is a different generation. So, you know, the young kids I remember are now the old stages.
1509
02:42:57,140 --> 02:43:01,140
And the old stages are all retired and sitting behind their keyboards talking about how it's
1510
02:43:01,140 --> 02:43:06,980
not like it used to be. Yeah, I've heard that a lot of like the young kids grow up now wanting to
1511
02:43:06,980 --> 02:43:13,140
specifically do competitions and, of course, but then, you know, that was the same even in the day,
1512
02:43:13,140 --> 02:43:18,180
but then once they finish your competitions, they realize they've got the tools for outdoors.
1513
02:43:18,180 --> 02:43:23,380
Yeah. Because what people don't realize is that to be a good comp climber, you're doing all these
1514
02:43:23,380 --> 02:43:28,020
funny moves, but you're only doing these funny moves is because you're so good at the normal
1515
02:43:28,020 --> 02:43:34,980
ones that they need to do something to differentiate you. And so if you're a very good comp climber
1516
02:43:34,980 --> 02:43:38,020
and you can adapt to rock, you're probably going to be very good rock climber.
1517
02:43:38,020 --> 02:43:44,420
Yes. You I'm sure you have plenty of other stories, and I'm sure they're extremely interesting.
1518
02:43:44,420 --> 02:43:45,220
I can write a book.
1519
02:43:45,220 --> 02:43:52,260
Yeah, I think you should work on that because we're definitely out of time. And I appreciate
1520
02:43:52,260 --> 02:43:57,380
all the time that you spent with me today. This is going to be an awesome episode. So yeah,
1521
02:43:57,380 --> 02:44:01,780
I just want to thank you for joining me. Anything that you want to shout out or let people know
1522
02:44:01,780 --> 02:44:06,580
where they can find you or any other information that you might have, please let us know.
1523
02:44:06,580 --> 02:44:09,540
Find you or talk about future book plans.
1524
02:44:10,180 --> 02:44:16,340
I'm the circuit climbing on social media. I still exist to a limited degree, not as much as I used
1525
02:44:16,340 --> 02:44:23,060
to. Who knows one day my book might come out. Who knows one day it might not. I also want to give
1526
02:44:23,060 --> 02:44:27,780
a huge shout out to the brands that sponsored me over the years. Obviously I'm not active with a
1527
02:44:27,780 --> 02:44:41,940
lot of them, but like climbingholds.com, 80-510, Mad Rock, Carbon Grip, Climbskin. So many brands
1528
02:44:41,940 --> 02:44:46,580
helped me over the years, which being a photographer, you're generally not the
1529
02:44:46,580 --> 02:44:53,780
person in the spotlight. And at times it was a hard road. And I'm incredibly appreciative to
1530
02:44:53,780 --> 02:44:58,900
all those brands that put their money into the development of a sport by realizing that a
1531
02:44:58,900 --> 02:45:04,100
photographer was going to, or photojournalist was going to help promote it in the way I was able to.
1532
02:45:04,100 --> 02:45:10,100
And yes, I know huge thanks to everyone that supported me over the years, because it's been
1533
02:45:10,100 --> 02:45:16,740
a ride. And let me know if anything comes out. I can shout it out. Yeah, for sure. There'll be,
1534
02:45:16,740 --> 02:45:22,100
who knows, something at some stage. I mean, I still really do want to do the book. I just,
1535
02:45:22,100 --> 02:45:27,620
as I said, for mental health reasons, I had to step back. It was very draining and there was a
1536
02:45:27,620 --> 02:45:35,380
lot of emotions for a while there. But the great thing about the book is it's a part of history.
1537
02:45:36,100 --> 02:45:42,260
It doesn't have to be on time because it's already covering a historic period. And my goal for the
1538
02:45:42,260 --> 02:45:47,700
book was always something that, you know, one day Hannah Schubert's going to be sitting there with
1539
02:45:47,700 --> 02:45:51,860
her grandkids sitting on her lap and she'll be a little 85-year-old lady and she'll be like,
1540
02:45:51,860 --> 02:45:56,820
and she'll be showing her grandkids photos of what she did when she was young. And I'll probably be
1541
02:45:56,820 --> 02:46:04,740
long dead, but she'll be like, still talking about the work I did. So, you know, that legacy
1542
02:46:04,740 --> 02:46:09,940
aspect of photography and capturing something for the future is, you know, I don't want it to go to
1543
02:46:09,940 --> 02:46:16,660
waste. So I will eventually get the book out and, you know, one day, one day. Leave that impact.
1544
02:46:16,660 --> 02:46:21,300
But yeah, thank you again. It was amazing to talk to you.
1545
02:46:21,300 --> 02:46:22,420
No worries. Thank you very much.
1546
02:46:22,420 --> 02:46:27,460
Yeah. Thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast. Don't forget to like and
1547
02:46:27,460 --> 02:46:32,900
subscribe if you enjoyed. Otherwise, you are a super fake climber. If you're listening on
1548
02:46:32,900 --> 02:46:37,700
a podcasting platform, I'd appreciate if you rated it five stars and you can continue the
1549
02:46:37,700 --> 02:46:43,220
discussion on the free competition climbing discord linked in the description. Thanks again
1550
02:46:43,220 --> 02:46:52,180
for listening.
