6: Allegra Maguire, Climbing Psychologist
Allegra is a Youtuber, mental climbing coach, and co-founder of ClimbInFlow, which provides services for climbing mind training. She has experience coaching all types of climbers, from beginners to world cup youth athletes. She recently came home from coaching at the youth world champs in Korea, where she helped Geila Macia Martin podium in boulder and lead! Allegra has also competed a bit herself, competing in Swedish Lead Championships after only 2 years of climbing.
Timestamps
Timestamps of discussion topics
0:00 - Introduction
5:20 - Which climbing federations have climbing psychologists?
7:54 - How climbing mixes with psychology
13:26 - Learning self compassion from Stefano Ghisolfi
17:21 - Anyone else relate to getting motivation from lack of self compassion?
21:21 - Coaching at youth world champs
27:00 - Sunk cost fallacy in climbing
31:03 - Opportunity cost neglect in competition climbing
39:52 - Psychological differences between youth and adult climbers
41:57 - How to get over fear of falling
47:49 - Fear of injuries
53:13 - Is it worth it to overcome fear?
59:01 - Is mental coaching even important?
1:04:17 - Climbing in the Swedish Lead Championships
1:07:13 - Women in competition
1:12:09 - Gender gap in climbing
1:18:07 - No such thing as fair in competition
1:24:29 - Where to find Allegra
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Second place is a failure for her.
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Giving power to those voices that say, you need to do this climb on lead or it's not
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valuable or it doesn't count.
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I've heard so much.
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Men have much higher levels of competitiveness and this is definitely driven by a lot of
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social pressure.
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Welcome to another episode of the That's Not Real Climbing podcast.
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I'm your host Jinni and I'm excited to introduce my guest for today, Allegra Maguire.
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Allegra is a mental climbing coach who has experienced coaching all types of climbers
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from beginners to World Cup youth athletes.
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In this episode, we'll talk about what it was like coaching one of her athletes at the
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Youth World Champs, how to deal with fear of falling, competing in Swedish league championships
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after only two years of climbing, and the competitive mindset difference between males
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and females.
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Hope you enjoy this episode with Allegra.
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Yeah, I'm glad we finally got a chance to schedule this.
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It's been a long time.
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Yeah, I'm sorry.
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I've been so busy.
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I've done so many things in the meantime.
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Yeah, definitely.
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So, yeah, there's a lot to catch up on.
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But yeah, so far, how are you doing today?
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I'm good, yeah.
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I've just started basically becoming a junior trainer for climbing as well.
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So a lot of stuff going on.
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Yeah.
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Do you feel like you're finally settled in after Korea and everything?
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Oh, yes, definitely.
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I took a while because after I came back from Korea, I got sick as well.
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And I kept getting naps.
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And so it took a bit.
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And how are you?
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Yeah, I'm good.
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I haven't been doing as much traveling as you lately, but maybe soon.
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Did you do any climbing yourself while you were in South Korea?
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Just some climbing in one indoor gym and not so much more.
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Too much.
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Yeah.
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How was it there?
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Very cool, actually.
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In the climbing, I mean, or in general?
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Both, yeah.
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Just from the climbing perspective, there's been a lot of talking going on about leveling
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up the level of root setters in different gyms because the level of root setting was
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very, very high in basically every boulder and gym in Seoul.
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And I mean, I had a lot of discussions with the Italian team because I might be starting
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to work with them next year.
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And for the rest of South Korea was very similar to Japan, I have to say.
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So I wasn't too culture shocked.
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And I know Japan very well.
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I used to live there for a while.
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So it was summer and Asia in summer, humid and hot.
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It was tough.
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But super cool life.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I've never been, but I really want to go.
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How's the podcast going?
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I saw that on Instagram, we're gathering followers.
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Yeah, it's been okay.
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It's been okay.
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It's a lot of work.
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Yeah, just like editing and distribution and stuff like that.
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Or I guess, yeah, getting the advertisement out there is always difficult, but it's been
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a whole process.
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But yeah, I feel like a lot has changed since the first time we tried to film this.
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Okay, like?
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Well, I'm slightly less scared every time I do an interview.
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And I'm a little bit more in the flow of the editing process.
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But there's still a lot I want to change once I have the time.
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Makes sense, makes sense.
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Yeah, experience changes a lot.
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Yeah, definitely.
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I'm sure you're familiar with that with your YouTube channel.
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Definitely, and I heard some of the podcasts that you've done.
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And it's very cool stuff, I have to say.
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And I usually listen to podcasts.
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Thank you for making the exception.
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Yeah, I'm really grateful for the guests I've had in the past.
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They've all been really interesting.
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So hoping to get more interesting people in the future.
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Definitely.
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Yeah, you mentioned that you might be doing stuff with the Italian team in the future.
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Is that something you're allowed to talk about now?
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I don't think I am.
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I can say that I got in contact with other federations.
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And I know that the Italian Federation is one of those that is in the same mental coaching
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and has their own psychologist that is taking care of the athletes.
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For example, this is something I can share.
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Also because I've been talking with other athletes via Instagram from the Italian team
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and I know that they have.
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It's a lot of difference depending on the federation, really.
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There's a lot of disparity when it comes to wealth.
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And this has a big impact on the team as a whole.
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Yeah, do you know which federations have dedicated climbing psychologists, if any?
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As I said, Italy has.
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But Spain doesn't.
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So I'm employed by the single families.
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I know that team Australia doesn't because I know that there have been some teams actually
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crowd sounding or with different concepts.
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So let's say the sports psychologist is one of the last things that they employ.
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They have other priorities rightfully.
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And I do understand.
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I still see it more like as a luxury, like that type of treatment that very top level
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athletes can get unless they ask them for them themselves.
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And it's in that uptake of getting the super high level, getting everything as top quality,
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top as possible, which is usually not how federations work in climbing.
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A lot of times they just try to go with what they have.
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And asking for more funds is not always easy and so on.
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Yeah, definitely.
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A lot of federations are struggling with having the amount of money that they need to pay
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everyone that the athletes want and paying for their athletes to go to competitions.
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Italy has this, the organization of getting them into the police.
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So this is how athletes can get a living basically.
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But not all of them get inside the police.
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They need to achieve some big trophies and stuff.
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So it's not like the whole team is in the police.
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So for example, Laura Rogora and Stefano Ghisolfi are.
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Ludovico Fossali, I believe so too.
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What I need to check.
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Yeah, that's good for them.
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I'm sure having a regular income makes a huge difference just psychologically as well, not
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having to worry about that.
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But yeah, it's a lot of stuff, a lot that has to be discovered and that I hopefully
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will know more about.
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I know about very small areas so far.
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And definitely the competition setting is one of my favorites.
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Yeah.
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And I think we'll get back to that in a little bit.
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But first of all, let's figure out how you got here to begin with.
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So can you tell us a bit about your background and how it relates to climbing and psychology?
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Yes.
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So I am a psychologist.
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I studied flight experimental psychological sciences.
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And after that, I moved to Sweden to study decision making, human decision making, because
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that was my main interest.
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But at the same time, as soon as I moved, I discovered there was a climbing gym really
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close by my apartment.
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And I started climbing and I got deep into it very, very fast.
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So I think less than a month after, I started climbing four to five times a week.
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Oh, that's a lot.
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When I get obsessed, the obsessions go deep, I have to say.
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So I started climbing and my climbing gym is a club.
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So it's not a commercial gym.
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It's very, very cheap.
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Let's say around $10 a month.
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It's super cheap.
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That also means that we don't have professional route setters.
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And everyone is allowed to route set during route setting weekends, which are approximately
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four times a year.
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And so I got more and more into the community and people were teaching me how to climb.
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We didn't have any course specifically for adults.
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We have for juniors, for kids, but not for adults.
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So you really learn with the community and you learn to bond with the club itself.
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So within six months from starting climbing, I started route setting.
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And then I got into the organization.
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So the following year was already in the board.
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So in making the decisions on how to improve the club, how to make it more safe, how to
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make it more fun.
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So I worked on, for example, adding a slab wall because we didn't have any.
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And it's very small.
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It's very, very small, but it allows a lot of interaction.
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And going forward, I started getting more and more involved with the club and getting
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to know more and more people and noticing that psychology is something that was quite
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missing in the climbing community and in the climbing scene.
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Despite being very prevalent.
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So a lot of people were talking about fear of falling, no systematic ways of talking
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about fear of falling.
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And especially when it goes outside of the fear of falling, everything is just regarded
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as mental game.
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And when you regard such complex processes with just one name, you can go into the details
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of it.
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You can really study it.
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You can understand how to change it actively, unless going by trial and error.
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And still with very little details.
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So I decided to start one year after starting climbing, I decided to start my YouTube channel
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in which I talk about sports psychology applied to climbing.
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And then I got a lot of people contacting me for starting to make coaching.
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And then I set up my own mental coaching service with other two amazing mental coaches.
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And so now I am officially owner, co-founder of Climb and Flow, where I just do a lot of
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different types of coaching from the average climber.
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A lot of fear of falling, fear of judgment, a lot of fears, I have to say.
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But also I started working with athletes because I got in contact with some families, most
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of them from Spain, and the word spread.
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So I started working with more and more elite athletes.
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And then I got the privilege, I have to say, to become Jela Masi-Martin mental coach.
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She's definitely the flagship of my athlete.
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It's impossible to say anything different.
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And so the idea is to put the athletes in the best mindset possible for competition.
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So I've been following them and giving them help and support.
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So for example, one of my athletes got injured.
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We had to help her follow her schedule for the rehab and not to have completely mood
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swings and to make her lose motivation for training despite she noticed that her strength
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was definitely lower than before.
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And she had an important competition that she really wanted to go to.
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So a lot of different types of coaching, even with elite climbers.
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But in most cases, it's about managing pressure in high demand and high anxiety situation.
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Okay.
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Yeah, that's awesome.
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We'll get into probably the differences between general coaching versus elite athlete competition
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coaching a bit later on.
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But first, I wanted to just talk a little bit about your YouTube channel because that's
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how I found you.
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You do a lot of videos about the psychology behind different pro climbers that people
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are familiar with.
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What World Cup climber do you find the most psychologically interesting?
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Oh, this is a big question.
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Since we have so many different athletes and so many different mindsets, I don't know if
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I can pinpoint one or another.
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But if I have to think about it actively, so if I want to think about one mindset that
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I would like more people to have and that will help a lot of people to improve their
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relationship with themselves and with climbing, I would say Stefano Ghisolfi.
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And I have done a video on Stefano Ghisolfi called Under the Mindset Analysis Series.
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It's called Self-Compassion.
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Because whenever I listen to him talk, and to a certain degree, I could also listen to
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him in Italian since I'm Italian as well.
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So I could get a bit more information, still don't know him directly in person I'm working
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on.
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And then, yeah, I'm getting into contact with more and more professional climbers.
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So I'll be doing more of these mindset analysis videos by asking them directly and trying
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to figure out, yes, instead of trying to extrapolate from information elsewhere.
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But Stefano has this very self-compassion attitude towards himself, towards mistakes,
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towards improving that really is fueling his desire for improvement, for climbing, from
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enjoying the roots of his climbing indoors or outdoors.
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And it's something that really can be trained, can be learned.
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And a lot of people misunderstand because of the self-development industry, the role
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of self-compassion compared to self-discipline.
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So a lot of people see self-compassion as a way of being self-indulgent with oneself.
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And use a lot of very tough self-talk to try to go through difficult times.
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And this, in the long run, it's detrimental for several reasons.
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First of all, unless there are some specific cases in which the person has been developing
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in a very tough environment, has been succeeding in surviving and not quitting, then maybe
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self-discipline could still work without too many detrimental effects.
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But we know from the research that people that are more self-compassion are able to
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keep internal, intrinsic motivation for a longer period of time.
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They can get through setbacks more easily and they have a higher level of quality of
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their lives and of enjoyment of their activity as well.
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So we both know from a research point of view, but we also know from psychotherapy.
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So we know that from the clinical area, self-compassion is a very important aspect to improve quality
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of lives and how you basically see yourself when you are in the process.
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So when you put together these two types of evidence, you can learn to see how self-compassion
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can be used in specific settings, such as managing mistakes in sport.
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Not that there is no research in sport, there it is.
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A lot of research in self-compassion in sport as well.
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But all the information basically is going towards that direction.
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Yeah, I think for me personally, I probably struggle with that quite a bit.
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Yeah, just like when you were talking about it, it sounded a lot like me to have not much
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self-compassion.
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But I guess the way I justified it was if I tell myself that I suck, then I'll want
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to work harder to do better.
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And if I tell myself that I'm doing well, then I'll get complacent and just be like,
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well, I'm already doing well, so there's not really a need to try harder.
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So I guess in a way that can be kind of bad, but that's just what I'm thinking.
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So the thing is that even when you tell yourself, if you are the type of person to tell yourself
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that you suck and you still get motivated, then there is a part of yourself that is aware
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of the fact that, for example, you're able to improve and learn if you want to.
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And the problem really is when you get the lows of motivation.
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So one thing is saying like, I suck at this move.
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Another thing is saying, I suck.
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So refer to yourself, maybe yourself as a client, yourself as a person, has different
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kinds of implications, definitely.
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And there is sometimes this narrative that if you're satisfied with what you have, you
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might not want to keep going further.
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You know, you don't have as much desire to keep on going.
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And if we look at the different types of motivation that people have, usually it's not the fear
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of sucking, for example, that drives a lot of people, it's the sense of accomplishment,
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doing better and being capable of what you're doing and so on.
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And then we know for sure from the research in strength training that the more you get
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experienced in one type of activity, the harder it will be to get to a certain level and to
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improve.
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You know, we call it the plateau, but it's much more complex than this, but it is in
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the long scale, how it looks like and how it feels like for a lot of people.
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So it's a lot about the amount of effort they have to put into it to reach the next
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marginal gain.
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So the effort that you need to put into it becomes greater and greater.
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And then if the desire, the motivation that you want to put into it is driven by fear,
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it's much easier to give up because you have already achieved a lot, let's say.
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You might have some basis, maybe say, okay, I suck at comp style moves, but I'm super,
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super strong outdoors.
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And I can keep on working on that, maintaining that, seeing where is my limit and not wanting
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to invest in the things that are threatening you, let's say.
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Despite the types of motivation that are going towards trying to achieve your goals.
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So if you're not afraid of sucking, you have more motivation to keep on trying to go for
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improving your weaknesses of something that doesn't feel as, let's say, feasible or as
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rewarding right away.
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So those people are more prone to persevering even when the, let's say, the stake comes
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later in time compared to the reward at the moment.
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Because the reward at the moment is what is actually trying to overcome the fear of sucking
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in that specific thing.
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Well, thanks for helping me with that.
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Yeah, let's move on to the Youth World Championships, which you were just at in Korea that we were
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talking about.
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So yeah, let's talk about first, what group of athletes are you currently coaching?
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So I'm currently coaching one athlete that is 12.
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And we started working together when she was 11, so she's still not in the IFSC circuit.
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And then I have some athletes that are 15.
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They all come from the same group.
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And the one that I've been going to the World Championships with is Jayla Masia-Martin,
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who is a climber that you will hear a lot more in the future.
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And I'm saying this not just because she is my athlete, and of course she is special in
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my eyes, but she is outstanding.
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She is the European champion and won the championships in both LEAD and Boulder.
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So not only the championships, but the overall top, let's say, in both cases.
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And also in the World Championships, she got two medals in the two disciplines that she
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competed in.
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So she is definitely outstanding.
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She was also the only one from Europe on the podium.
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Oh, wow.
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Japan went very, very hard at the Youth World Championships.
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And it might be also because they're more familiar with the weather conditions, because
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every European got completely smashed by the weather conditions because it was incredibly,
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incredibly humid and hot.
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And the facilities were, I would say, pretty bad.
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So for example, when they had to warm up for boulders, the bouldering area was extremely
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small.
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The route setting was very, very easy.
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There was a spray wall that was made only by jugs.
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What?
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Wow.
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There were no hangboard.
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It was very, very weird.
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They all got a bit thrown off by this, and mentally it was very hard, I would say, for
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everyone because they didn't have a lot to work on.
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Everyone was trying to create boulders with boulders that were not set for that intention.
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And the only holes that were hard enough were always the same.
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So everyone was almost like in line or trying to push each other out of the walls to warm
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up.
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Oh, that's stressful.
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It was very, very stressful.
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And you could feel it in the air really, especially the first day when people went around the
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area and discovered that there was one small campus board that was not a standard campus
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board and it was on vertical.
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And the rung was pretty big too.
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There was no space to move the feet underneath.
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It was very weird.
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So very, very difficult conditions, I have to say.
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And then when they were climbing outdoors, because the comp settings were outdoors, the
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sun was hitting.
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Sometimes it was raining a bit because the high level of humidity does this, and everyone
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was slipping all the time.
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And probably the Japanese team was more used to this compared to other countries.
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Korea also did very well.
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Hometown advantage.
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Yes.
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But the Japanese team was a striking one.
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You could see results in settings which you would never guess.
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For example, speed climbing.
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And seeing the goal in speed climbing by a female Japanese girl, athlete, it was pretty
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striking to me.
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So it was definitely conditions that played a role.
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And then maybe definitely the Japanese team has an edge in training.
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It still has to be discovered.
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Right.
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What are their secrets?
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But overall, the championships went really, really well.
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The setting was very interesting.
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Sometimes weird, I have to say.
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Very hard to read holders and routes, which in a certain sense wanted to push for decision
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making, I would say.
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Route-reading ability rather than strength and technique sometimes.
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Because a lot of, for example, the females final was a disaster for half participants.
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Probably half of the girls were crying when they finished.
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The route was incredibly hard to read.
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And a lot of people got stuck.
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Many mistakes and very difficult type of climbing, I have to say.
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The boulder was pretty much the same, not as dramatic, I have to say.
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But you could see that the athletes were all struggling trying to understand which was
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the best, the easiest beta.
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So slashes were less prevalent.
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Sometimes there were.
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There was a run in which J.L.A. did all the boulders flash.
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But for example, not in finals.
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This wasn't the case.
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Or for the finals, the boulders were especially tricky to read.
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00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:06,400
And so how does decision making kind of connect with it?
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Is it just as simple as making a decision and sticking to it and committing?
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Or is there more to it?
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Definitely a lot more.
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And I have to say, well, I have a professional deformation in this term.
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But I work a lot with cognitive biases in decision making.
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00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:31,720
So the types of biases that impact our way of processing information or applying or sticking
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to decision, actually sticking to decision is one of the biases that we study so much.
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And for example, one is the sound cost fallacy.
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So maybe some of the audience, someone from the Austin Tops for Me or Sound Costs are
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the costs that already occurred in a decision.
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And they shouldn't influence future decision.
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So the decision should be an evaluation of pros and cons in the different outcomes and
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depending on the probabilities of the outcomes and whether you invested resources.
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00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:10,920
It doesn't even need to be money.
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It could be time, it could be energy, it could be training, it could be anything really.
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Really shouldn't influence a future decision.
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00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:25,880
And this is also called the Concord fallacy because the Concord was a project for a super
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fast jet that was supposed to make, yes, traveling super fast across the world.
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And I think there were actually two governments that funded this project with, I don't remember
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how much money, but a lot of money.
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And the problem was that as soon as the project started, they understood that it was going
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to fail.
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But since they invested this amount of money, they kept on investing it.
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Let's see if there's something that we can do about it since we put so much money into
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it and if they continued then it failed eventually as it was predicted.
401
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,760
But this can be used for any aspect of our lives.
402
00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:11,560
It could be used for, for example, relationships.
403
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:18,480
Maybe you invested a lot of time in one relationship and you don't want to get out of it or you
404
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,280
invested your time in a university course that you don't really like, that you know
405
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:26,520
you've done a couple of exams, you don't want to throw all that effort away.
406
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:32,840
When it comes to climbing, it can really go from training.
407
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:37,340
So for example, with training, we have to say that we see the opposite.
408
00:29:37,340 --> 00:29:42,920
So people are not sticking to a specific type of training plan.
409
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:48,760
But sometimes there is something like if it works, don't change it.
410
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:56,080
So you've seen something that has been working for a very long time, for example, just climbing.
411
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,400
And you keep on climbing.
412
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:03,360
So like, I mean, this I've been improving so much with just climbing.
413
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,920
This should work for the future as well.
414
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:11,880
And this is a kind of a different bias.
415
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:23,800
You really can have it in any type of investment that you have for your, both in your like
416
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:26,480
training and the competition setting.
417
00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:32,480
In a sign cost fallacy is usually not, you can see it, for example, in a boulder.
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00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:37,160
So you do a move, you do a specific kind of beta, and you see improvement.
419
00:30:37,160 --> 00:30:43,160
And you see this could work and you don't take the time to try something else because
420
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:48,600
you see there is something that is working, something that is improving and you don't
421
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,080
want to make these efforts to waste.
422
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:54,600
So you want to make this beta work.
423
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,240
Well there might be something easier that can work.
424
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,320
I've seen it in sound comps.
425
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:04,640
Fortunately, this is not something that JLA showed during the competition, but it's something
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00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:06,760
that can happen.
427
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:15,280
One bias that I see much more frequently than sound cost bias is the opportunity cost neglect.
428
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:22,540
And it's the basic of opportunity cost neglect is that all resources are finite.
429
00:31:22,540 --> 00:31:28,440
So in any decision there is an opportunity cost, which is the cost of the option that
430
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:30,560
is not chosen.
431
00:31:30,560 --> 00:31:31,560
So what does it mean?
432
00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:37,800
It means that with any choice you make, you're forgoing something else.
433
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:43,080
And if you don't pay attention to the fact that you are basically giving up something
434
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:48,680
else with this choice, you incur into opportunity cost neglect.
435
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:50,280
And I've seen it many times.
436
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:56,400
I've actually seen it sometimes in JLA, so we worked on it as well.
437
00:31:56,400 --> 00:32:02,540
And it's something that I'm actually working on as a PhD student.
438
00:32:02,540 --> 00:32:08,280
So I've worked on opportunity cost neglect a lot throughout different contexts and now
439
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,600
I'm applying it to climbing as well, to need climbing.
440
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,680
But you can see this, this is a general example.
441
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:24,320
This is not the case of JLA, but consider for example, when you are bouldering or lead
442
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:27,280
climbing and you have to do several sessions.
443
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So for example, when it comes to lead climbing, you have semi-finals and finals are on the
444
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same day, which means that you will be doing a lot of effort.
445
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:41,400
You will be losing a lot of skin, especially if you're doing bouldering.
446
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,800
You're going to get pumped.
447
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:49,240
And if you can make a precise estimate of how is your performance, especially compared
448
00:32:49,240 --> 00:33:00,240
to the other competitors, you need to really make strategic decisions about whether your
449
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:06,280
effort or whether you're giving up with the next choice and the next try and the effort
450
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:10,300
that you're going to put in the next round is going to be worth.
451
00:33:10,300 --> 00:33:14,960
So for example, you see that there is a boulder is specifically hard.
452
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:19,120
You've got the zone, is the last boulder.
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00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:27,080
And now you can see from the information that is going around from the crowd, you can get
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00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:33,120
an idea whether you are final or not, especially if you're in the top position.
455
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:38,040
Then it might be worth, especially if for example, it's a sloper move with mega jump
456
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:41,480
where you can lose a lot of skin, you can open flat.
457
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:47,320
Then, you know, these kinds of elements can impact a lot, the final.
458
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:57,320
And so you might be willing to not push to the very last bit of effort and allocate it
459
00:33:57,320 --> 00:33:58,320
to the finals.
460
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:05,320
That if you don't, you're taking it away from times for the final.
461
00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:11,040
But what I notice is that a lot of time athletes are actually trying to do their actual best
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00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,880
in semifinals as well.
463
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:18,080
And this has some impacts, for example, in their motivation.
464
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:25,600
So if they end up first in semifinal, they feel more confident that they can win in finals
465
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:26,600
as well.
466
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:31,760
But also from the data that I have collected, this is not the case.
467
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:33,960
Oh, really?
468
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,880
I've got the data from World Cups and Championships.
469
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:43,240
I don't remember how many years, but actually between the three podium positions, there
470
00:34:43,240 --> 00:34:47,960
is no difference in the predicted outcome of who's going to win.
471
00:34:47,960 --> 00:34:53,240
So this is something that I find really interesting that I talk about a lot with my athletes.
472
00:34:53,240 --> 00:35:02,560
So for example, Jayla had issues with her confidence when she's not first in semifinals.
473
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:10,320
We worked a lot in trying to get her this confidence back and really go for her best
474
00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:13,800
in finals with the confidence that she can go there to win.
475
00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:15,480
Because this is what she has.
476
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,080
We know that she wants to go there and take first place.
477
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,960
Second place is a failure for her.
478
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:25,960
This is the kind of mentality that she has, and that is fine.
479
00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,120
Something that we have to manage, but it's not a problem itself.
480
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,840
And it's something that really allows her to do her best.
481
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,360
So it's not something that is pulling her down.
482
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:36,000
So for example, self-sabotaging.
483
00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:39,440
She doesn't have this type of behavior.
484
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:44,060
So for her, this is the aim, her goal.
485
00:35:44,060 --> 00:35:49,680
But sometimes she would want to do her best and try to be first even in semifinals when
486
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,760
it's not necessary.
487
00:35:53,760 --> 00:36:00,080
We don't actually see this much of a problem because Jayla, we have to say, has a good
488
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:02,000
edge on the other participants.
489
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,880
So it doesn't really matter as much.
490
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,600
But I've seen from other professional climbers.
491
00:36:08,600 --> 00:36:14,160
So for example, I remember there was an interview for Jessica Pils, the qualified second at
492
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:18,600
the European Championships, I believe.
493
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:20,280
And they asked her how she felt.
494
00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:25,280
She said that she was disappointed because she couldn't give her best effort.
495
00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:32,320
And in my mind, when you qualify second for finals, it's like you should be screaming
496
00:36:32,320 --> 00:36:37,120
out of joy that you didn't even have to put everything you had into that situation.
497
00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:43,360
And you get this extra edge compared to the other participants because you are more fresh.
498
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:44,960
You are not as pumped.
499
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:52,920
And especially if it's like a foot slip, it's something like it doesn't impact your skin
500
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:56,880
or your pump as much.
501
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:01,920
But in her mind, this wasn't the case because that was an indication of, for example, lack
502
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:09,120
of focus or something that she wouldn't feel as confident for the finals as well.
503
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:14,720
Jessica Pils, Jessie, is one of the most accomplished competition climbers as well.
504
00:37:14,720 --> 00:37:19,280
So we know that she can do very, very well in competitions.
505
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:25,120
And it shouldn't be the result of semifinals, which is impacted by so many factors to influence
506
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:29,280
or determine whether she feels confident for the finals or not.
507
00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:31,080
You know what I mean?
508
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:36,800
And I don't see this mentality in competition climbers as much.
509
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:42,400
Sometimes we see boulders that say, okay, I'm good with my performance.
510
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:47,400
I can go to the next step, which is a sign that people take into consideration opportunity
511
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,400
costs.
512
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:54,760
I remember Yania at the Olympics with the last boulder.
513
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:59,320
She flashed the first two and the third one, she didn't top it.
514
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:04,840
And she did two tries, I believe, more than one for sure.
515
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,560
So she showed that she wanted to send the last boulder as well.
516
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:12,840
But then she had to do lead climbing afterwards.
517
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:18,220
So she did try more than once, despite she was already first and she knew she was already
518
00:38:18,220 --> 00:38:27,280
first the first two boulders, even without coming out on the mat.
519
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,320
I can understand the pride in wanting to top all the boulders at the Olympics.
520
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:32,320
Absolutely fine.
521
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:34,000
But after a while she said, I'm stopping here.
522
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:38,240
I'm going to do lead so that I can go take my goal there too.
523
00:38:38,240 --> 00:38:39,240
Yeah.
524
00:38:39,240 --> 00:38:45,880
I actually don't remember that, but I feel like she usually just wants to climb as much
525
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:46,880
as she can.
526
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:47,880
Yeah.
527
00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:54,720
But when you have a different session afterwards, the whole process of going through qualifications
528
00:38:54,720 --> 00:39:01,080
and finals and finals in very small period of time is really a lot about strategic thinking.
529
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:05,960
And Yania has the edge by the fact that she can flash everything basically.
530
00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:11,760
So the amount of effort that she has to put compared to other participants is much less.
531
00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:12,760
She's much more fresh.
532
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,080
She has more skin and so on.
533
00:39:16,080 --> 00:39:24,000
But at the same time, it's still a whole other process of going through the lead Olympics.
534
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:29,480
So it made sense that she stopped after a while.
535
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:34,040
Please excuse this brief intermission, but I would just like to take some time and remind
536
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:39,880
you that if you are enjoying this podcast, please follow and rate it on your preferred
537
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:40,880
listening platform.
538
00:39:40,880 --> 00:39:46,040
If you're watching on YouTube, be sure to subscribe and hit the like button.
539
00:39:46,040 --> 00:39:50,960
Anything helps to push this podcast out to more people and get even more amazing guests
540
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,440
on back to the show.
541
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:58,340
I guess talking about where athletes are at psychologically, what are some of the differences
542
00:39:58,340 --> 00:40:03,800
you see between like youth climbers and like adult climbers?
543
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:06,840
Either in the competition scene or just in general.
544
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:07,840
Okay.
545
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:13,200
So definitely with youth climbers, we have many more difficulties with managing emotions
546
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:18,000
because this is the age where the prefrontal cortex is developing.
547
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:25,960
So it's how you manage not only your emotion, but how you program your own rewards throughout
548
00:40:25,960 --> 00:40:26,960
time.
549
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:32,840
So for example, kids and adolescents require rewards more often compared to adults.
550
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:35,000
Adults can sustain frustration for a longer period of time.
551
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:39,880
They can sustain attention for a longer period of time and so on.
552
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:47,400
So when it comes to working with the adolescents, it's a lot about managing the emotion.
553
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:51,920
So I do a lot of emotion regulation kind of mental training.
554
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:58,200
While with the adults, it's usually much more about beliefs about themselves, which are
555
00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:03,880
more strong and eradicated in the idea of who the people are, the person is.
556
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:09,480
So for example, I'm a coward, something I hear a lot when I do fear of falling training
557
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,120
with people.
558
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:12,920
And it's a judgment.
559
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:21,800
It's a judgment and a statement that is generalized to the whole being.
560
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:27,120
It's not just like I'm a coward when it comes to this specific situation.
561
00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,240
I'm a coward, period.
562
00:41:29,240 --> 00:41:30,240
That's who I am.
563
00:41:30,240 --> 00:41:32,160
This is how I work.
564
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:36,980
And if we want to overcome this, we have to work on how you see yourself.
565
00:41:36,980 --> 00:41:45,760
So we have to start by making a bit of an analysis of the different types of fear the
566
00:41:45,760 --> 00:41:47,940
person has because when it comes to...
567
00:41:47,940 --> 00:41:51,840
I'm talking now about fear of falling, but it can be applied to anything a lot of people
568
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:52,840
are afraid of.
569
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:59,240
For example, climbing in front of people and especially when it comes to significant others.
570
00:41:59,240 --> 00:42:02,960
But let's talk about fear of falling, for example.
571
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:03,960
It's much easier.
572
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:11,040
A lot of people say that they are afraid of falling, but fear of falling can really have
573
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:15,040
so many different faces and people don't realize.
574
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:20,380
So when they say, I'm afraid of falling, say, okay, but what are you afraid of?
575
00:42:20,380 --> 00:42:25,320
And then they start thinking about it and they say, okay, but then are you afraid of
576
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,760
be laying on top rope, for example?
577
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,320
And they say, no.
578
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:36,020
And then the other person that is in the course with me is like, I am actually afraid of be
579
00:42:36,020 --> 00:42:38,600
laying, I'm afraid of killing my friend.
580
00:42:38,600 --> 00:42:45,240
And I mean, when it comes to top roping, we know that as long as there is safety check
581
00:42:45,240 --> 00:42:52,880
and everything is managed as it's supposed to be, with the body check and everything,
582
00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:57,160
then the chances of this happening are very, very low.
583
00:42:57,160 --> 00:43:01,020
When it comes to lead climbing, be laying is not as straightforward.
584
00:43:01,020 --> 00:43:06,680
So there are a lot of people that are actually anxious and afraid of lead be laying.
585
00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:13,520
So this is another type of fear of falling that I work with a lot.
586
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:19,320
And then there are some people that are afraid not really of falling, but of losing control.
587
00:43:19,320 --> 00:43:24,440
So they can do program falling, but not when they're not really aware of what are the consequences
588
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:29,060
or what could happen if you fall in a weird position and how to manage a situation which
589
00:43:29,060 --> 00:43:30,060
are actually dangerous.
590
00:43:30,060 --> 00:43:34,280
And we know they are, for example, when you have the foot that is behind the rope and
591
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,620
can get entangled and you can fall up backwards.
592
00:43:37,620 --> 00:43:43,840
So there are so many different types of fear and even just making them realize that there
593
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:48,480
are so many different types and they don't have all of them is already something that
594
00:43:48,480 --> 00:43:50,840
is doing something for them.
595
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:57,720
Of course, I'm not like I'm putting it into that perspective, but the perspective is that
596
00:43:57,720 --> 00:43:59,000
you're helping each other.
597
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:04,640
So I do these courses with like six, eight people at the time and everyone has different
598
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:06,240
kind of fears.
599
00:44:06,240 --> 00:44:11,080
And when they have to work helping not only like themselves because they have to help
600
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:16,920
themselves so that they can improve with their sensations and their fears, they also have
601
00:44:16,920 --> 00:44:18,880
to help the other person.
602
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:22,440
And the other person has different fears from what you have.
603
00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:28,360
And it actually, when you see that you can help someone else as well, it really gives
604
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:34,320
you a different perspective about how fear of falling feels.
605
00:44:34,320 --> 00:44:38,960
And when you see that there are some people that are terrified just by sitting on the
606
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:45,440
harness when they're on top rope and there are plenty of these people, we don't see them
607
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:47,920
as much because they just don't climb.
608
00:44:47,920 --> 00:44:50,640
They just boulder.
609
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:52,880
So this is one of the missions that I have, right?
610
00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:59,440
So try to bring more people rope climbing because there is a lot of people that just
611
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:03,460
don't start because they can't overcome the fear or it's like too much of an effort for
612
00:45:03,460 --> 00:45:09,360
them to actually enjoy the climbing.
613
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:15,380
And then the person that says, yes, I'm a super big coward is there doing the proper
614
00:45:15,380 --> 00:45:24,260
falls with some slack and going onto the overhang that is scaring them as much and so much.
615
00:45:24,260 --> 00:45:27,880
So it really puts things into different perspective.
616
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,500
You can see the progression not only yours but of other people.
617
00:45:31,500 --> 00:45:38,800
So it's impacting this idea that this is who I am and it's unchangeable and gives them
618
00:45:38,800 --> 00:45:43,000
confidence by the fact that they can change the way they feel and they can change the
619
00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:47,960
way they perceive the different threats and that they can enjoy the climbing more.
620
00:45:47,960 --> 00:45:51,560
Because this is one of the biggest issues with fear of falling.
621
00:45:51,560 --> 00:45:57,460
Of course, some people would say to me it's very, very frustrating that I'm not able to
622
00:45:57,460 --> 00:45:59,000
climb at my max grade.
623
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:03,480
For example, when you compare the climbing to top roping.
624
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:09,440
But a lot, a lot of people just say like, I don't do it because I don't like it because
625
00:46:09,440 --> 00:46:16,840
I'm so scared and I feel so overwhelmed or I feel so incompetent when I do it that I
626
00:46:16,840 --> 00:46:21,700
just don't enjoy what I'm doing even if I'm doing something that is very easy for my level
627
00:46:21,700 --> 00:46:25,880
of expertise.
628
00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:32,800
So really is different when it comes to adults compared to adolescents.
629
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:35,240
Adolescents are also much more reckless.
630
00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:38,520
No fear of falling.
631
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:45,960
I had some youth, not an elite climber that has fear of falling.
632
00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:48,980
But it really goes with the background that they have.
633
00:46:48,980 --> 00:46:57,720
So for example, if they come from an environment that is overprotective, then no room to experimentation
634
00:46:57,720 --> 00:47:01,640
and to some degrees of risk is allowed.
635
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:07,180
And then they learn to be very afraid, especially if the parents are very afraid themselves.
636
00:47:07,180 --> 00:47:11,720
So basically they learn this is a coping mechanism to protect themselves.
637
00:47:11,720 --> 00:47:13,620
And then, yeah.
638
00:47:13,620 --> 00:47:20,120
I mean, I would also think that getting injured would really affect the fear of falling as
639
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:21,120
well.
640
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:22,120
Exactly.
641
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:26,240
I actually have a lot of adults that are afraid of fear of falling because of injuries.
642
00:47:26,240 --> 00:47:30,120
I fortunately have youth climbers that are afraid.
643
00:47:30,120 --> 00:47:37,440
I had one athlete that got a bit more scared when she was climbing on lead.
644
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:41,640
And then there was like a very big pyramid that was sticking out.
645
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:44,440
And so she hit it with a fall.
646
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:46,120
But nothing bad happened.
647
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,960
She got a bit self-conscious about the consequences of the fall.
648
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:55,120
So for a while she didn't commit as much, but then she overcame it quickly.
649
00:47:55,120 --> 00:48:00,800
Usually injuries are a big issue when it comes to your falling with adults.
650
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:06,560
And also because they have to consider whether it's worth going back into it, especially
651
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:12,200
if the injury is very severe or happens multiple times, because unfortunately I've seen it
652
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:16,080
happening multiple times for the same person.
653
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:19,200
Oh gosh.
654
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:23,720
Which can be a lot to think about really.
655
00:48:23,720 --> 00:48:29,600
Because there are some situations and some places which are more dangerous than others.
656
00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:37,240
I have to say that when I compare the things that I see happening in Sweden compared to
657
00:48:37,240 --> 00:48:43,920
my Italian clients, because most of my clients are from Italy or from Sweden, because I live
658
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:49,560
in Sweden, but I can also do coaching online with Italians because I'm Italian.
659
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:52,240
And then I can do it in English with all the other countries.
660
00:48:52,240 --> 00:48:55,100
That's why I also have contact with Spain and so on.
661
00:48:55,100 --> 00:49:01,520
But when it comes to fear of falling, most of my clients are from Italy and from Sweden.
662
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:06,520
And in Sweden, especially when it comes to indoor climbing, we have very rigid standards.
663
00:49:06,520 --> 00:49:11,120
So you cannot climb unless you have the green card, which is something that you get after
664
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:17,680
following two days course and doing an exam that is both theoretical and practical.
665
00:49:17,680 --> 00:49:20,720
And they still always show the green card or the red card.
666
00:49:20,720 --> 00:49:23,880
Green card is for top roping and red card is for lead climbing.
667
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:26,560
It should always be on your harness.
668
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:33,560
And if you are seen doing it systematically, things are not conformed to what you're taught,
669
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:35,360
then they can actually revoke it.
670
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:40,480
And say, I'm not letting you from doing this climbing here.
671
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:44,120
And you're giving a bad example for someone else as well.
672
00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:52,240
So for us, at least what I've seen here in Sweden, we have this very high standards.
673
00:49:52,240 --> 00:49:58,120
And if you ask Swedes, they wouldn't say that they are high, but compared to other countries,
674
00:49:58,120 --> 00:50:04,480
and I can talk about Italy, I can talk about Spain, but the standards there is lower.
675
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:09,040
So you don't have any systematic way of doing the courses.
676
00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:14,960
I don't really know how it is in the rest of the world, but it's like, yeah, I can check
677
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:19,640
how you belay and then I give you something that tells you you can do the belaying.
678
00:50:19,640 --> 00:50:25,760
There is much less attention to details or how to do dynamic belaying, how to prevent
679
00:50:25,760 --> 00:50:30,040
certain types of injuries, how to prevent not falling upside down and all of these kinds
680
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:31,120
of things.
681
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:38,260
Or as simple as holding on the brake strand of the rope when you're with the grigri.
682
00:50:38,260 --> 00:50:46,840
So it really is a problem to climb in certain environments in which rules are not enforced
683
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:52,720
or not, let's say, embraced as much.
684
00:50:52,720 --> 00:50:58,320
And this can raise a lot of issues with trusted people.
685
00:50:58,320 --> 00:51:04,040
So is there more fear in Sweden where it's very strict or in other countries?
686
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:09,840
I would say Sweden is as much as other countries, but the fact is that when you have less safety
687
00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:17,800
in some places, like we always talk about the Mediterranean countries where we're very
688
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:22,280
used to belaying while smoking or looking at the phone.
689
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:23,280
Okay.
690
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:25,680
I've never seen that, but wow.
691
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:32,840
And it's very famous, it's called Mediterranean belaying, unfortunately.
692
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:35,640
And it happens very often.
693
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:41,640
And when this is linked with injuries, like this would obviously lead towards more injuries.
694
00:51:41,640 --> 00:51:45,840
So injuries can happen everywhere, but we still have to try to mitigate the risk as
695
00:51:45,840 --> 00:51:47,220
much as possible.
696
00:51:47,220 --> 00:51:53,480
And so when you see as many injuries happening and the people get injured, then they get,
697
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:55,560
of course, more scared.
698
00:51:55,560 --> 00:52:04,000
And then there is all the trust with the belaying relationship that it's not really, they say,
699
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:06,920
investigated as much.
700
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:12,560
And you need to teach the person to look for someone who is reliable.
701
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:18,480
And so it's not as easy really when it comes to an environment that is not as protected
702
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:20,320
as, for example, in Spain.
703
00:52:20,320 --> 00:52:25,960
And everyone can, of course, can do whatever they want outdoors, but it's still something
704
00:52:25,960 --> 00:52:29,280
that we need to think about because it's a dangerous sport.
705
00:52:29,280 --> 00:52:31,920
And you know this and we need to...
706
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:34,640
I see injuries in my gym as well, of course.
707
00:52:34,640 --> 00:52:41,200
I'm responsible for seeing injuries basically everywhere, but most of them are in the boulder
708
00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:46,720
area, not while doing rope climbing.
709
00:52:46,720 --> 00:52:51,120
And we were trying to do as much as we can to prevent those.
710
00:52:51,120 --> 00:52:57,000
And we can still do more, but it's definitely a different situation also because in lead
711
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:59,920
climbing you have more severe injuries.
712
00:52:59,920 --> 00:53:09,320
I mean, I have one athlete, one client that after an injury couldn't walk for a while
713
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:11,200
and that was his second injury.
714
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:19,520
So there were very severe accidents, bones that were broken and people risking their
715
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:20,520
lives lately.
716
00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:21,520
Yeah.
717
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:24,680
How do you come back from something like that?
718
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:29,440
First of all, you need to actually ask yourself if you want to come back.
719
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:36,120
And for the person in question, climbing is so important for his life that probably climbing,
720
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:41,680
I'm still not aware if he decided to go back, but we talked about it and he was positive
721
00:53:41,680 --> 00:53:45,960
to the idea of going back into climbing because climbing is something that literally saved
722
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,900
his life.
723
00:53:48,900 --> 00:53:57,320
So I believe the motivation there is enough, but there are some times in which the risk
724
00:53:57,320 --> 00:53:59,440
is not worth the candles.
725
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:01,240
It's what we say in Italian.
726
00:54:01,240 --> 00:54:05,200
I don't know if this expression exists in English or not.
727
00:54:05,200 --> 00:54:10,880
We actually say the game is not worth the candles, but because at the time we were supposed
728
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:18,000
to play without lights and the candles were expensive.
729
00:54:18,000 --> 00:54:19,000
Doesn't matter.
730
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:26,360
But really when it comes to overcoming your fears, there is always motivation that needs
731
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:28,280
to be assessed before.
732
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:32,720
So I know some people that say like, I'm afraid of falling on lead.
733
00:54:32,720 --> 00:54:33,720
Like, okay.
734
00:54:33,720 --> 00:54:35,760
Do you want to overcome it?
735
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:37,200
Like yes and no.
736
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:38,200
Okay.
737
00:54:38,200 --> 00:54:39,200
Why yes?
738
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:40,200
Why no?
739
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:47,720
Yes, because otherwise I feel like a failure as a climber, but no, because I mean, I am
740
00:54:47,720 --> 00:54:54,160
a trad climber and I feel like I can enjoy my trad climbing even if I do easy climbing
741
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:58,480
and what is really important for me in climbing is the community, being outdoors, being in
742
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:02,200
the nature, being with friends and having fun.
743
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:08,440
So in that case, I don't feel the need of improving my fear of falling.
744
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:15,640
And so there you see that in those cases, like is it really worth it going through the
745
00:55:15,640 --> 00:55:23,720
fear of falling training, going through the adrenaline, all the stress of doing, because
746
00:55:23,720 --> 00:55:30,160
it's stressful for a lot of people to do this kind of training and to do what?
747
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:35,680
To give credit to the voice in your head that says that if you don't climb super hard, you're
748
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:37,720
not a good climber.
749
00:55:37,720 --> 00:55:39,580
You know what I mean?
750
00:55:39,580 --> 00:55:42,840
So in some cases, I actually advise not to do it.
751
00:55:42,840 --> 00:55:45,280
I mean, don't do it.
752
00:55:45,280 --> 00:55:50,400
If you enjoy what you're doing, if you don't feel like there's a real need of like overcoming
753
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:55,600
this fear, this is not actually limiting your enjoyment or limiting what you want to do.
754
00:55:55,600 --> 00:56:04,240
And actually in some cases, it's also like a measure of saying I am good enough or not
755
00:56:04,240 --> 00:56:06,400
and just don't do it.
756
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:12,520
We don't have to like, this is my own perspective, but we don't always have to show ourselves
757
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:17,440
or to others that we are worth of something no matter what.
758
00:56:17,440 --> 00:56:24,760
It's a bit of a narrative that we hear around, like always try to improve yourself, but can
759
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:28,320
you really try to improve yourself in everything?
760
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:29,320
We don't do it.
761
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:34,520
I can tell you from the research that I do that we don't try to improve in everything
762
00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:41,040
because there is always something that feels so impossible for us that we don't even try.
763
00:56:41,040 --> 00:56:45,800
We don't even realize that these things are possible.
764
00:56:45,800 --> 00:56:50,520
We don't realize, if it's an okay, study astrophysics.
765
00:56:50,520 --> 00:56:52,360
Most people wouldn't even consider it.
766
00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:57,040
Like oh, but you should improve yourself, but why should I study astrophysics?
767
00:56:57,040 --> 00:57:05,800
I had interesting physics in my life, but this is just the general example.
768
00:57:05,800 --> 00:57:11,960
Like do we really have to improve ourselves or it makes sense for us to improve in things
769
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:15,960
that are important for us because it gives us satisfaction, it gives us connection with
770
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:21,480
other people, it makes us feel like we are improving and this is important for us and
771
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:23,560
so on.
772
00:57:23,560 --> 00:57:26,480
And especially sometimes can be as it's a detrimental.
773
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:32,240
So if it's giving power to those voices that say you need to do this climb on lead or it's
774
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:36,240
not valuable or it doesn't count, I've heard so much.
775
00:57:36,240 --> 00:57:39,680
Right, yeah, I hear that a lot.
776
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:42,400
I know and then like count for what?
777
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:50,560
Am I going to get into the debate whether I sent this 6C in the climbing community or
778
00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:51,800
not?
779
00:57:51,800 --> 00:57:56,320
Like you could do with 9C with or without knee pads?
780
00:57:56,320 --> 00:58:01,400
So this is like we can ask ourselves, does it make it easier, does it make it harder
781
00:58:01,400 --> 00:58:07,400
and does it count as like the difficulty of the route because we're talking about very
782
00:58:07,400 --> 00:58:13,920
high end, the very high end part of our sport.
783
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:18,400
So then it's important, it has a meaning but when it comes to climbing, when it comes to
784
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:25,000
doing something that we do for our enjoyment, it's not our job, okay, then it doesn't make
785
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:28,280
as much sense.
786
00:58:28,280 --> 00:58:32,800
Professional climbers get their sponsorships by the degree of difficulty of the routes
787
00:58:32,800 --> 00:58:34,720
they climb or the boulders that they climb.
788
00:58:34,720 --> 00:58:35,720
Do we?
789
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,960
As normal average climber, I'm not the average climber.
790
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:39,960
I wish.
791
00:58:39,960 --> 00:58:40,960
You wish?
792
00:58:40,960 --> 00:58:49,840
I mean, it is, you can get recognition for sure but it's a different kind of process
793
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:50,840
for sure.
794
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:54,440
So if it's important for you, do it.
795
00:58:54,440 --> 00:58:58,380
If it's not that important for you, then consider.
796
00:58:58,380 --> 00:59:03,080
Maybe you can find something else that is important in your life that is worth putting
797
00:59:03,080 --> 00:59:05,680
your effort into.
798
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:12,960
For all the people out there who maybe think that mindset or mental coaching is not as
799
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:18,120
important for them, what would you say to convince them that it is important and that
800
00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:22,040
it can make a difference in their climbing?
801
00:59:22,040 --> 00:59:24,880
I wouldn't want to convince them actually.
802
00:59:24,880 --> 00:59:32,320
So for example, it's like going to the physiotherapist when you don't have an injury.
803
00:59:32,320 --> 00:59:39,800
Okay, the knowledge, the basic knowledge, so to prevent injuries can be very important.
804
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:42,560
For example, physiotherapists can help in this.
805
00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:50,680
But sometimes when I would say go to do mental coaching when you feel that you want to do
806
00:59:50,680 --> 00:59:54,120
it, not because you feel the need to do it.
807
00:59:54,120 --> 00:59:58,880
So if you feel like there is a need, there is a need because you have a fear of falling,
808
00:59:58,880 --> 01:00:07,240
I wouldn't advise mental coaching to everyone just by like just do it.
809
01:00:07,240 --> 01:00:10,200
No, because mental coaching has a cost.
810
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:15,560
Just like people wouldn't go to a personal trainer.
811
01:00:15,560 --> 01:00:19,400
How would you advise everyone to go to do personal training for climbing?
812
01:00:19,400 --> 01:00:20,400
I wouldn't.
813
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:22,480
Like do it if you want to do it.
814
01:00:22,480 --> 01:00:23,740
It has a cost.
815
01:00:23,740 --> 01:00:28,040
You can do something else with those resources if you want to.
816
01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:31,480
If it's something that is important for you, just absolutely.
817
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:35,720
If it's something that it's worth for you doing, absolutely.
818
01:00:35,720 --> 01:00:41,280
And there might be much more that you actually expect or imagine into mental training, mental
819
01:00:41,280 --> 01:00:43,280
coaching, absolutely.
820
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:49,360
But I don't believe like if it was available for everyone for free, like I'm doing on YouTube,
821
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:54,360
I'm trying to share information for free as much as possible, then go check it out.
822
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:55,360
Why not?
823
01:00:55,360 --> 01:00:59,320
It's something that I'm trying to bring there that is different from what other people are
824
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:00,320
doing.
825
01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:04,640
And okay, time is not infinite, but it might be.
826
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:08,120
I hope it's some well used time.
827
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:17,880
But when it comes to like doing some precise one-to-one coaching or mental coaching courses
828
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:23,560
and workshops, it makes sense if it makes sense to you.
829
01:01:23,560 --> 01:01:29,080
So if you are interested in improving your, for example, root reading and visualization,
830
01:01:29,080 --> 01:01:30,080
then do it.
831
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:34,120
It's something that maybe you didn't think about doing systematically, but it can be
832
01:01:34,120 --> 01:01:35,120
done.
833
01:01:35,120 --> 01:01:42,720
If you feel like you'd be interested in doing sure-following courses, absolutely.
834
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:43,720
Follow the courses.
835
01:01:43,720 --> 01:01:49,800
If you think that you want to improve your, for example, your self-talk, your emotional
836
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:56,760
regulation or how you manage anxiety, and that is meaningful for you.
837
01:01:56,760 --> 01:02:02,200
So for example, you have that much anxiety that you can't do what you want.
838
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:04,640
You either perform or enjoy the activity.
839
01:02:04,640 --> 01:02:05,640
Absolutely.
840
01:02:05,640 --> 01:02:08,000
We're here for this.
841
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:10,240
If it makes sense to you.
842
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:15,120
If you are a professional athlete and for you it's important to have the top edge even
843
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:23,480
in your mindset and in all those mental aspects in climbing for you to actually be able to
844
01:02:23,480 --> 01:02:25,360
perform at your best.
845
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:27,240
And absolutely do it.
846
01:02:27,240 --> 01:02:31,240
If your federation has the money for it or if someone has the money for it, of course.
847
01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:36,280
Always the same problem of resources, I have to say.
848
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:43,880
And when it comes to climbing, I don't see as much the prejudice towards working on your
849
01:02:43,880 --> 01:02:52,000
mind as much as you would see it in psychotherapy because there is no stigma over diagonals,
850
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:53,880
let's say.
851
01:02:53,880 --> 01:02:55,400
This is a big issue in psychotherapy.
852
01:02:55,400 --> 01:03:03,040
I am no psychotherapist, but this, I have studied psychotherapy, so I know this issue.
853
01:03:03,040 --> 01:03:08,040
Maybe there is a bit, I have to say that most of my clients are female.
854
01:03:08,040 --> 01:03:14,240
So it could be that it's easier for females to reach out for help.
855
01:03:14,240 --> 01:03:18,240
We know this is usually the case in general.
856
01:03:18,240 --> 01:03:23,720
But I don't see as much stereotype and prejudice towards mental training in climbing and in
857
01:03:23,720 --> 01:03:24,720
other settings.
858
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:30,040
And climbing is in general such a supportive community that people are aware of each other's
859
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:34,720
feelings, each other's issues or difficulties with judgment.
860
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:38,680
And they try to be sensitive about it.
861
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:45,600
And so I believe it's easier to reach out for mental coaching when it comes to climbing
862
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:51,760
compared to mental coaching and other services in other sectors.
863
01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:56,680
So I'm not very convincing and maybe I'm not really selling my job as well as you would
864
01:03:56,680 --> 01:03:57,680
want me to do.
865
01:03:57,680 --> 01:04:06,040
But I really believe that it shouldn't be something that everyone should do it just
866
01:04:06,040 --> 01:04:07,040
because.
867
01:04:07,040 --> 01:04:12,000
Make people reactive in what they choose to do and do what they really want.
868
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:16,040
And it really would also yield more results and satisfaction.
869
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:21,840
I know we're already almost getting to the end of time here, but I do want to just switch
870
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:26,520
gears real quick so we can talk a little bit about your own competition experience.
871
01:04:26,520 --> 01:04:28,400
Yes, why not?
872
01:04:28,400 --> 01:04:34,400
So yeah, not at a world level or anything like that, but you've competed in the Swedish
873
01:04:34,400 --> 01:04:37,400
League Championships.
874
01:04:37,400 --> 01:04:43,760
How do you manage yourself mentally during a competition like that?
875
01:04:43,760 --> 01:04:44,760
Definitely.
876
01:04:44,760 --> 01:04:52,000
So the reasons why I went to the League Swedish Championships was pretty different from usual,
877
01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:53,960
I would say.
878
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:56,640
I had basically two main goals.
879
01:04:56,640 --> 01:05:01,480
The first one was to enjoy the route setting because I do a lot of route setting.
880
01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:05,760
I enjoy route setting and World Cup route setting or like competition style route setting
881
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:08,000
is something that I'm really into.
882
01:05:08,000 --> 01:05:14,280
And when you see the route set, that is just one wall all for you.
883
01:05:14,280 --> 01:05:17,440
It's a different kind of setting.
884
01:05:17,440 --> 01:05:21,760
It's just a lot of fun and that was one of the main reasons why I wanted to go.
885
01:05:21,760 --> 01:05:31,680
But also I went to the Championships just two years after starting climbing.
886
01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:39,040
My idea is that, okay, I got the red card, I can lead climb indoors, but I am afraid
887
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:40,520
of falling.
888
01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:45,560
So I got the red card late because of COVID, the courses were red.
889
01:05:45,560 --> 01:05:53,240
But anyways, I said, okay, I want to overcome my fear of falling when on-siting.
890
01:05:53,240 --> 01:06:00,600
So my aim is I want to be able to go somewhere and be able to on-site and do my very best
891
01:06:00,600 --> 01:06:05,360
when on lead as I am with, well, when I'm on top rope.
892
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:14,400
So I decided to put a very ambitious time schedule and to participate to the Championships
893
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:19,960
here just eight months after having taken the red card course.
894
01:06:19,960 --> 01:06:26,760
So I had eight months, I signed up like second person, so I have number two, right after
895
01:06:26,760 --> 01:06:31,960
opening of the enrollment.
896
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:37,960
And I said, okay, I have these eight months to go to this level and get as close as possible
897
01:06:37,960 --> 01:06:44,040
to the school of trying to be confident while leading on-site.
898
01:06:44,040 --> 01:06:47,440
And this was my main goal.
899
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:51,760
And of course, enjoying the whole process, every setting, meeting the people, and like
900
01:06:51,760 --> 01:06:55,240
so many amazing people around there.
901
01:06:55,240 --> 01:07:00,440
In that situation, so it was overall a lot of fun, very interesting.
902
01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:07,680
Fear was still a factor at the time, so I couldn't give my whole best for the setting,
903
01:07:07,680 --> 01:07:10,760
but I definitely was very satisfied.
904
01:07:10,760 --> 01:07:13,760
I ended up also getting seventh.
905
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:19,500
So it was a very unexpected result to go to finals and so on.
906
01:07:19,500 --> 01:07:27,920
This also really sparked the discussion about competitiveness in women because there were
907
01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:33,960
so many more men, still a lot, that many, but so many more men compared to women.
908
01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:39,600
We were just in eighth, so we already knew that we were all going to go to finals and
909
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:43,200
then right from the start.
910
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:50,020
And it really made me think about the reasons why women don't compete in general.
911
01:07:50,020 --> 01:07:56,400
We know that men have much higher levels of competitiveness, and this is definitely driven
912
01:07:56,400 --> 01:07:58,440
by a lot of social pressure.
913
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:06,640
So men have a lot less value of demonstrating social status by comparing with each other,
914
01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:17,360
how females have the, let's say, social learning of community, being close to each other, helping
915
01:08:17,360 --> 01:08:24,320
each other, and trying to be better than others as a way of being envied much more than a
916
01:08:24,320 --> 01:08:25,320
card.
917
01:08:25,320 --> 01:08:32,160
So we know that women tend to not want to compete as much as men.
918
01:08:32,160 --> 01:08:37,160
There are many reasons why this is the case, and there are studies, and I'm still studying
919
01:08:37,160 --> 01:08:42,480
about it because it's not my area of expertise, but there are definitely a lot of factors.
920
01:08:42,480 --> 01:08:48,520
Some parts are, some are definitely also, then we can talk about how big the impact
921
01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:51,200
is, but there are genetic differences.
922
01:08:51,200 --> 01:08:58,040
So for example, hormones, and there is interaction with temperament, which is the set of traits
923
01:08:58,040 --> 01:09:02,880
that you have when you're basically born, and then you have personality traits, that
924
01:09:02,880 --> 01:09:08,400
is the development of the interaction between genetic factors, environment, and temperament.
925
01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:15,880
And then you have social learning that becomes more and more self-driven the older you become
926
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:17,560
because you select your own environment.
927
01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:19,560
So it's a very complex process.
928
01:09:19,560 --> 01:09:25,840
It's very difficult to see which is the biggest share.
929
01:09:25,840 --> 01:09:34,720
Obviously the social environment is pushing, meant to be more competitive compared to women,
930
01:09:34,720 --> 01:09:41,160
but it's a bit of a shame to see that females don't want to put themselves into the situation
931
01:09:41,160 --> 01:09:45,120
of being seen and get self-conscious.
932
01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:53,000
We know that women have in general higher levels of anxiety, and especially social anxiety.
933
01:09:53,000 --> 01:10:00,400
It's a matter of fact we know, so almost like double the frequency.
934
01:10:00,400 --> 01:10:07,960
So it's something that we have to teach both guys and girls, that it's okay to compete,
935
01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:13,920
that it's okay that sometimes people will look at you in a fun way, and that sometimes
936
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:18,960
you might make a fool of yourself, and that is fine as well.
937
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:24,720
For example, I have a lot of guys that I tried to bring to the competition, and girls as
938
01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:25,720
well.
939
01:10:25,720 --> 01:10:27,560
Girls I couldn't find to convince anyone.
940
01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:32,640
I could convince guys, but some guys are saying, like, I'm not going because it doesn't make
941
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:33,640
sense to me.
942
01:10:33,640 --> 01:10:34,640
Why?
943
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:37,240
Because I don't want to be last.
944
01:10:37,240 --> 01:10:39,300
And this is the main issue, right?
945
01:10:39,300 --> 01:10:40,880
You don't want to be last.
946
01:10:40,880 --> 01:10:46,800
And I want to ask anyone, like, can you tell me one name of one person that arrived last
947
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:49,440
at the competition that you've seen?
948
01:10:49,440 --> 01:10:54,200
I guess that's kind of the point, I guess.
949
01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:59,800
That is also kind of a point, but people are not competing to be, well, of course, if you
950
01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:04,160
want to go there and win, if this is your goal, you want to be remembered as the one
951
01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:13,760
that wins, but people are afraid of when it comes to arriving last, and like to be perceived
952
01:11:13,760 --> 01:11:17,840
as a fool or someone who's a loser and so on.
953
01:11:17,840 --> 01:11:20,160
But like there is always a last one.
954
01:11:20,160 --> 01:11:25,920
And I guess no one will remember that you got last, so it's fine.
955
01:11:25,920 --> 01:11:26,920
Fine.
956
01:11:26,920 --> 01:11:33,840
But sometimes, you know, we try to evaluate ourselves and give ourselves value depending
957
01:11:33,840 --> 01:11:36,000
on how we perform.
958
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:38,800
This is one part of the process.
959
01:11:38,800 --> 01:11:41,320
We know there is an impact of that.
960
01:11:41,320 --> 01:11:47,240
If you do better in outcomes, you will feel more confident for the next time.
961
01:11:47,240 --> 01:11:50,200
If you do worse, you will feel less confident.
962
01:11:50,200 --> 01:11:57,360
Yeah, but the problem is sometimes that the fear of failure really can impact even your
963
01:11:57,360 --> 01:12:01,000
idea of trying.
964
01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:05,920
And that really impacts your development, impacts your confidence, because you're not
965
01:12:05,920 --> 01:12:12,440
able to sustain the frustration of failure, and we go back to the topic that we were talking
966
01:12:12,440 --> 01:12:14,600
about before, right?
967
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:19,240
Do you think that's also the case in other sports where there's also just like less women
968
01:12:19,240 --> 01:12:22,000
interested in all competitions?
969
01:12:22,000 --> 01:12:23,640
Or is it specifically climbing?
970
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:32,240
Because I mean, there is a bit more of a gender gap in terms of male climbers and like female
971
01:12:32,240 --> 01:12:33,520
climbers.
972
01:12:33,520 --> 01:12:37,240
So I don't have the data for all sports.
973
01:12:37,240 --> 01:12:40,000
There are definitely differences in different kinds of sports.
974
01:12:40,000 --> 01:12:47,280
I know, for example, that one of the most balanced sports for gender is CrossFit, where
975
01:12:47,280 --> 01:12:50,920
the share of females and males is 50-50.
976
01:12:50,920 --> 01:12:52,360
Surprising, actually.
977
01:12:52,360 --> 01:12:56,240
Very surprising and very interesting.
978
01:12:56,240 --> 01:13:00,200
But there are, I would say, two factors.
979
01:13:00,200 --> 01:13:06,000
One is that for male sports, they're usually much more endorsed than for females since
980
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:15,960
we're growing up always, because the development of the physical abilities, it's much more
981
01:13:15,960 --> 01:13:19,380
rewarded in men compared to women.
982
01:13:19,380 --> 01:13:26,920
And then when women train, socially speaking, a lot of time it happens for weight management
983
01:13:26,920 --> 01:13:29,840
rather than for like the development of strength.
984
01:13:29,840 --> 01:13:36,360
So men tend to go much more into fitness rather than sports, unless they've been growing up
985
01:13:36,360 --> 01:13:43,560
in a situation like in a culture or in a family that is pushing towards sports instead.
986
01:13:43,560 --> 01:13:50,880
So typically kids start by doing sports because sports allow them to develop a lot of different
987
01:13:50,880 --> 01:13:58,160
abilities, coordination and balance, different self-body awareness and a lot of stuff.
988
01:13:58,160 --> 01:14:01,880
And of course, it's super healthy.
989
01:14:01,880 --> 01:14:11,840
But then when they go into competitive settings, competitiveness is also much more rewarded
990
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:14,000
in men, as I said.
991
01:14:14,000 --> 01:14:22,880
So as I said, it's easier for men to feel some satisfaction from competing while females
992
01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:25,200
tend to feel more self-conscious.
993
01:14:25,200 --> 01:14:30,000
And then when it comes to, as I said, growing up and choosing the activity that you want
994
01:14:30,000 --> 01:14:37,960
to do, females go into fitness not only because of weight management, body image and so on,
995
01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:41,960
but also because men do this as well, of course.
996
01:14:41,960 --> 01:14:46,880
But it's also because there is no element of competition that is directed, like a tension
997
01:14:46,880 --> 01:14:49,480
on who is better than the other.
998
01:14:49,480 --> 01:14:55,160
And a lot of people find a lot of relief into this kind of setting.
999
01:14:55,160 --> 01:15:00,280
And in a certain sense, it's great that people find their own environment.
1000
01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:06,200
I'm not saying that everyone should be competitive or no one should be competitive.
1001
01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:08,640
Everyone should be allowed to do what they want.
1002
01:15:08,640 --> 01:15:14,560
But the thing is that when it comes to gender, I would say that there are some pressures
1003
01:15:14,560 --> 01:15:20,760
are hindering the ability to choose, and this is a bit of a shame.
1004
01:15:20,760 --> 01:15:26,720
When it comes to climbing, climbing, I don't have the data.
1005
01:15:26,720 --> 01:15:29,480
I really don't have the data about how many people are...
1006
01:15:29,480 --> 01:15:33,720
I mean, I know how many females we have in our club and it's much, much less than what
1007
01:15:33,720 --> 01:15:35,880
we have for men.
1008
01:15:35,880 --> 01:15:42,360
I know that in some cases it's a third or less than members.
1009
01:15:42,360 --> 01:15:49,720
And it is also true that it's a sport in which the progression for female at the start is
1010
01:15:49,720 --> 01:15:52,280
harder than for males.
1011
01:15:52,280 --> 01:15:56,340
So male progression are more faster at the start than females.
1012
01:15:56,340 --> 01:15:59,200
So it can be less rewarding.
1013
01:15:59,200 --> 01:16:07,160
But there are other sports that are rewarding more female abilities, such as balance or
1014
01:16:07,160 --> 01:16:12,800
other types of abilities that might reward more females compared to males.
1015
01:16:12,800 --> 01:16:14,680
For climbing, I don't really know.
1016
01:16:14,680 --> 01:16:18,560
There is definitely a difference between bouldering and lead climbing.
1017
01:16:18,560 --> 01:16:24,280
So it's easier to find a share that is higher for lead climbing compared to bouldering because
1018
01:16:24,280 --> 01:16:26,560
it's less powered than bouldering.
1019
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:31,280
At the same time, bouldering is more accessible than rope climbing because you don't need
1020
01:16:31,280 --> 01:16:35,360
a partner, you don't need a harness, you don't need a belayer and so on.
1021
01:16:35,360 --> 01:16:40,760
So I would say that the share for females is improving also because weight-changing
1022
01:16:40,760 --> 01:16:46,720
technique, you teach them how to overcome the difficulties with having less pulling
1023
01:16:46,720 --> 01:16:51,640
ability compared to men.
1024
01:16:51,640 --> 01:16:55,560
There is also variation, of course, and we always have to talk about it.
1025
01:16:55,560 --> 01:17:06,760
But we know that the female body after puberty has the development for a very strong lower
1026
01:17:06,760 --> 01:17:14,440
body compared to body weight and then the lower parts, lower limbs.
1027
01:17:14,440 --> 01:17:20,200
So actually we know that, for example, females are very strong in...
1028
01:17:20,200 --> 01:17:21,800
Can you share the cat?
1029
01:17:21,800 --> 01:17:22,800
Yeah.
1030
01:17:22,800 --> 01:17:25,520
Cat is like a straight tension.
1031
01:17:25,520 --> 01:17:34,000
So pulling ability is definitely of higher level for males without training.
1032
01:17:34,000 --> 01:17:39,360
Like if the males and the females pulling ability, the dimension of the muscles in the
1033
01:17:39,360 --> 01:17:41,400
back are bigger.
1034
01:17:41,400 --> 01:17:44,720
So it is easier for them to do pull-ups.
1035
01:17:44,720 --> 01:17:48,520
And if you can do pull-ups, it's definitely easier to campus push-ups.
1036
01:17:48,520 --> 01:17:56,000
And you can, let's say, work without as much technique.
1037
01:17:56,000 --> 01:18:01,640
You can figure it out and get away with it, getting your send and getting your reward.
1038
01:18:01,640 --> 01:18:10,240
While females need to go through more frustration at the start compared to men.
1039
01:18:10,240 --> 01:18:11,240
And then there is reach.
1040
01:18:11,240 --> 01:18:12,920
Let's not forget about it.
1041
01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:19,520
Yeah, and when you're in the competitions and there's so many less women to compete against,
1042
01:18:19,520 --> 01:18:21,400
I think that happens to me as well.
1043
01:18:21,400 --> 01:18:31,520
And it kind of feels like, oh, well, maybe I placed high, but there were only three other
1044
01:18:31,520 --> 01:18:32,880
people to compete against.
1045
01:18:32,880 --> 01:18:36,400
So it doesn't feel very legitimate.
1046
01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:38,680
I think that's an issue as well.
1047
01:18:38,680 --> 01:18:44,840
Yeah, I mean, this is really depending on the type of standards I have for success and
1048
01:18:44,840 --> 01:18:47,600
failure would make you satisfied or not.
1049
01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:53,200
And what is the drive for you to compete?
1050
01:18:53,200 --> 01:18:55,800
I really like competing, for example.
1051
01:18:55,800 --> 01:18:59,680
I used to never compete because it was too much pressure for me.
1052
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:02,000
Then I started climbing and I changed as a person.
1053
01:19:02,000 --> 01:19:07,560
And now I really enjoy competing because it really gives me the possibility to focus on
1054
01:19:07,560 --> 01:19:10,720
getting max effort in that setting.
1055
01:19:10,720 --> 01:19:16,800
So for example, I've learned to not go as hard before the competition, not prepare and
1056
01:19:16,800 --> 01:19:21,160
having my trainings for that situation.
1057
01:19:21,160 --> 01:19:25,560
And I like that I have no excuses for not trying my best.
1058
01:19:25,560 --> 01:19:27,280
That is the moment.
1059
01:19:27,280 --> 01:19:29,760
And this is a feeling that I like a lot.
1060
01:19:29,760 --> 01:19:36,120
And if I am able to try my best, try very hard, I get a lot of satisfaction, independently
1061
01:19:36,120 --> 01:19:39,880
from the result.
1062
01:19:39,880 --> 01:19:45,800
Then it happened to me too that I won the climbing club competition because the strongest
1063
01:19:45,800 --> 01:19:47,240
climber wasn't there.
1064
01:19:47,240 --> 01:19:48,240
She was outdoor climbing.
1065
01:19:48,240 --> 01:19:49,240
Oh great, yeah.
1066
01:19:49,240 --> 01:19:53,320
On a Sunday day, so very few people competed.
1067
01:19:53,320 --> 01:19:58,560
And she is so much stronger than me, super short as well.
1068
01:19:58,560 --> 01:20:04,120
So it's really agility that makes her incredible.
1069
01:20:04,120 --> 01:20:09,440
And I won, I still beat another competitor that is very, very strong.
1070
01:20:09,440 --> 01:20:11,720
Usually he always beats me.
1071
01:20:11,720 --> 01:20:13,820
It was a route that suited me a lot.
1072
01:20:13,820 --> 01:20:15,600
So there are a lot of contingencies.
1073
01:20:15,600 --> 01:20:17,560
I take this victory.
1074
01:20:17,560 --> 01:20:24,720
I'm happy that I won for the first time the club competition.
1075
01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:29,040
At the same time, does it change really what I think about myself, what I think about myself
1076
01:20:29,040 --> 01:20:30,040
as a climber?
1077
01:20:30,040 --> 01:20:35,080
No, I wouldn't say that I'm stronger than the other girls.
1078
01:20:35,080 --> 01:20:39,440
Neither of them, neither of the ones that I beat in that specific situation, competitions
1079
01:20:39,440 --> 01:20:40,440
are like this.
1080
01:20:40,440 --> 01:20:45,280
And I think that actually when it comes to sport, there is almost nothing that is as
1081
01:20:45,280 --> 01:20:46,280
unfair.
1082
01:20:46,280 --> 01:20:51,400
There are so many factors that go in between.
1083
01:20:51,400 --> 01:20:59,400
Directly being able to control the results and seeing this is the result of your effort
1084
01:20:59,400 --> 01:21:02,800
or your weaknesses is incredibly hard.
1085
01:21:02,800 --> 01:21:08,720
You need to have a lot of competitions to try to rule out the effects of chance, the
1086
01:21:08,720 --> 01:21:13,080
effects of people getting injured.
1087
01:21:13,080 --> 01:21:20,600
Maybe we have the slug or someone else slipping or there's always something that goes on.
1088
01:21:20,600 --> 01:21:23,600
And then there is a lot of disparity when it comes to facility.
1089
01:21:23,600 --> 01:21:30,640
I can never climb competition-style things because we can't set them.
1090
01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:33,760
We don't have the space, we don't have the ability.
1091
01:21:33,760 --> 01:21:36,100
We really don't have the space.
1092
01:21:36,100 --> 01:21:38,480
Our bouldering area is incredibly small.
1093
01:21:38,480 --> 01:21:42,320
We have a lot of roots, but we have very little bouldering.
1094
01:21:42,320 --> 01:21:48,120
So the only thing that I can do is to go to other places in Stockholm and try to do comp
1095
01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:49,120
style things.
1096
01:21:49,120 --> 01:21:54,120
Of course, I can't be very good at those if I can't train them.
1097
01:21:54,120 --> 01:21:57,560
And then this is how it is.
1098
01:21:57,560 --> 01:22:04,360
We have to accept that we try to make it as even as possible, but for a sport and especially
1099
01:22:04,360 --> 01:22:07,520
climbing is very, very far from being fair.
1100
01:22:07,520 --> 01:22:10,000
Very, very far.
1101
01:22:10,000 --> 01:22:13,120
As I said, Jayla, she was two years old.
1102
01:22:13,120 --> 01:22:16,040
She has a home wall.
1103
01:22:16,040 --> 01:22:23,120
And her bouldering space is bigger than the bouldering space that we have in our gym.
1104
01:22:23,120 --> 01:22:24,680
It's like this.
1105
01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:29,080
And I mean, Jayla has her own personal mental coach.
1106
01:22:29,080 --> 01:22:35,920
And we're trying to bring it, to make it fair as much as possible.
1107
01:22:35,920 --> 01:22:39,680
Then what are the conclusions that you...
1108
01:22:39,680 --> 01:22:42,480
Everyone is trying to do their best, even in the competition setting.
1109
01:22:42,480 --> 01:22:49,080
Jayla is not just amazing because she has those privileges, let's say.
1110
01:22:49,080 --> 01:22:51,440
But at the same time, we have to consider.
1111
01:22:51,440 --> 01:22:55,840
Some people don't have some privileges and some people have them.
1112
01:22:55,840 --> 01:23:01,040
And we have to try to understand that these things happen.
1113
01:23:01,040 --> 01:23:03,880
And sometimes there are other things that get in the way.
1114
01:23:03,880 --> 01:23:06,760
And they said, maybe you injure yourself.
1115
01:23:06,760 --> 01:23:07,760
And sometimes this happens.
1116
01:23:07,760 --> 01:23:10,200
It's just like lack of luck.
1117
01:23:10,200 --> 01:23:13,640
You have a genetic predisposition to injuries as well.
1118
01:23:13,640 --> 01:23:15,480
So what if you have...
1119
01:23:15,480 --> 01:23:19,360
I have neck injuries all the time, since before flagging.
1120
01:23:19,360 --> 01:23:22,720
So I have chronic pain for my neck.
1121
01:23:22,720 --> 01:23:26,920
And I always need to be very cautious about it all the time.
1122
01:23:26,920 --> 01:23:30,120
And at the moment, it's hurting a lot.
1123
01:23:30,120 --> 01:23:34,620
And there is something that is there all the time in the back of my head.
1124
01:23:34,620 --> 01:23:39,920
So I know that I, in a certain sense for me, trying to look into going forward with my
1125
01:23:39,920 --> 01:23:44,960
competitive climbing means trying to go around this.
1126
01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:47,000
It's something that I have to think.
1127
01:23:47,000 --> 01:23:53,800
Beatrice Colle, speed climber, Italian, now World Cup level.
1128
01:23:53,800 --> 01:23:59,720
She has a deformation in her heel and she has special shoes for her to be made because
1129
01:23:59,720 --> 01:24:01,340
she has this disease.
1130
01:24:01,340 --> 01:24:03,300
And the heel hooking for her is very painful.
1131
01:24:03,300 --> 01:24:05,280
So she has to go around that.
1132
01:24:05,280 --> 01:24:09,240
She's a speed climber, but of course she does all the types of climbing as well.
1133
01:24:09,240 --> 01:24:11,400
And so she has to go around this.
1134
01:24:11,400 --> 01:24:16,360
And sometimes you have to think about like, these things happen.
1135
01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:21,840
Sometimes we try to go around them, but there is not much thing that we can do about them.
1136
01:24:21,840 --> 01:24:24,640
Yeah, we're coming to the end of time.
1137
01:24:24,640 --> 01:24:31,080
I think those were all the questions I had, but do you have any final thoughts?
1138
01:24:31,080 --> 01:24:32,440
It was a pleasure being here.
1139
01:24:32,440 --> 01:24:33,440
Yeah.
1140
01:24:33,440 --> 01:24:35,560
Do you want to let people know where they can find you?
1141
01:24:35,560 --> 01:24:36,600
Absolutely.
1142
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:43,840
So they can find me and my email that is alegra at climbingflow.com.
1143
01:24:43,840 --> 01:24:49,840
Of course, you can also find me on Instagram, Aligra McGuire.
1144
01:24:49,840 --> 01:24:52,440
You can follow through the YouTube channel.
1145
01:24:52,440 --> 01:24:56,360
There's Aligra McGuire, climbing psychologist.
1146
01:24:56,360 --> 01:25:03,360
And yeah, basically I am active on all of these social media.
1147
01:25:03,360 --> 01:25:13,920
My answer, and if you want to know more about my mental coaching services, www.climbingflow.com.
1148
01:25:13,920 --> 01:25:15,600
And then there are also my contacts.
1149
01:25:15,600 --> 01:25:16,600
Yeah.
1150
01:25:16,600 --> 01:25:19,840
I'll leave all of the links below in the description.
1151
01:25:19,840 --> 01:25:21,280
Yeah.
1152
01:25:21,280 --> 01:25:22,280
Thank you so much.
1153
01:25:22,280 --> 01:25:24,120
It was amazing to talk to you.
1154
01:25:24,120 --> 01:25:25,120
Thank you.
1155
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Thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast.
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If you're watching on YouTube, I would love to hear your discussion and thoughts in the
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comments below.
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And don't forget to like and subscribe if you enjoyed.
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If you're listening through a podcasting platform, I'd appreciate if you rate it five stars and
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you can continue the discussion through my competition climbing discord linked in all
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the descriptions through all the platforms.
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Thanks again for listening.
