9: Campbell Harrison, Australian Lead Climber
Campbell represents team Australia and is one of the Oceania region’s top competitors for moving onto the Olympics in the boulder and lead combined category. He also recently got elected to the IFSC athlete’s commission, so in this episode we’ll talk about causes he’d like to champion through that, what it’s like competing as an Australian, and he also opens up about his past struggles with eating disorders, as well as why he was partially missing in Olympic qualifiers in 2020.
Timestamps
Timestamps of discussion topics
0:00 - Introduction
3:13 - Past commentating experience
7:46 - When Campbell first started climbing and competing
10:17 - Transitioning from youth to adult
15:14 - Growth as a climber
19:17 - Recent Australian Boulder Nationals results!
25:19 - The difficulties of being an Australian climber
31:40 - Thoughts on how to grow the Australian team
35:44 - What is the IFSC athlete’s commission
39:00 - Causes to fight for in athlete’s commission
44:00 - The issue of unfair routesetting
48:34 - Personal experience with RED-S
59:36 - RED-S differences between male and female climbers
1:04:18 - Missing out on the 2021 Olympics
1:11:35 - Excitement about not having to speed climb
1:15:48 - Training plans after Oceania qualifiers
1:19:22 - Discord Q: Are climbers are targeted by the government in regards to aboriginal heritage?
1:23:03 - Discord Q: Thoughts on Eubank grading?
1:24:42 - Discord Q: Being queer in the climbing community: how does it feel competing in countries where it's illegal?
1:29:19 - Where to find Campbell + Outro
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to climb as well as I did in the finals and make a podium as well felt like the culmination
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of almost a decade of really, really hard work.
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Having an eating disorder felt mandatory in the sport.
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In tears the whole time, went out to climb, didn't do well in the speed round, and ultimately
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made the decision that I would
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Welcome to another episode of the That's Not Real Coming podcast.
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I'm your host Jinni and I'm excited to introduce my guest for today, Campbell Harrison.
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Campbell represents Team Australia and is one of the Oceania region's top competitors
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for moving on to the Olympics in the boulder and lead combined category.
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He also recently got elected to the IFSC Athletes Commission, so in this episode we'll talk
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about causes he'd like to champion through that, what it's like competing as an Australian,
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and he also opens up about his past struggles with eating disorders as well as why he was
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partially missing in Olympic qualifiers in 2020.
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Hope you enjoy this episode with Campbell.
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Yeah, you just came off of a really busy season, so how's it going?
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Yeah, good.
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It's still going.
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At this point we've got the biggest event of the year coming up in three weeks or so,
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the Continental Olympic Qualifier for the Oceania region.
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Officially qualified for that event, I'm on the start list and now the final preparations
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begin for what should be an interesting and exciting and terrifying experience.
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Congrats, yeah.
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Can you remind us of the dates again?
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I think it is the 24th and 25th of November.
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Yeah, we've got the finals are on the 25th on the Saturday, so that'll be when the Olympic
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ticket gets crowned for the Australia, New Zealand region.
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Looking forward to that.
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How are you feeling for it?
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Yeah, really good.
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The selection events, we had two separate selection events, a lead one and a boulder
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one, and I got first in the lead and second in the boulder.
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So I'm going into the event as the first place seeded athlete.
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And yeah, shape feels really good.
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Feeling quite consistent, which is really nice.
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And that's kind of all you can really hope for.
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I think that's going to be the main game of this one is maintaining that consistency
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across the two disciplines to hopefully, for me, I think it's going to be more a matter
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of keeping up in bouldering and then hopefully I can score some extra points in lead that
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will make the difference and fingers crossed, take the ticket.
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Yeah.
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Well, we're all rooting for you.
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That'll be really exciting.
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Yeah.
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And I definitely want to get into that a little bit more in a bit.
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But yeah, I think it'd be great if we just got to know you a little bit first in general.
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Well, actually, so first of all, I think this is just like top of mind for me right now
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because I just had my interview with Mac Room lately and people were also curious about
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the commentary that you've done co-commentating.
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Which World Cups did you co-commentate on?
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This year, I just did Clionson for the finals.
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But I've done lots and lots over the years actually, I think.
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In 2017, I did a bunch.
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2016, I think I did some as well.
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So kind of like over the years, I've done lots of different events and it's always
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been so much fun for me.
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And I think it's something outside of climbing, sports broadcasting is really interesting
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to me and I really enjoy getting behind the mic and experiencing it from that side of
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things.
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So it's something that you're maybe interested in pursuing in the future?
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Oh yeah, for sure.
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If I retired tomorrow and the IFSC livestream commentator gig was up for grabs, I would have
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my name in the ring for sure.
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I think it's so much fun and kind of a dream post-athletic career for me or one of us,
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you.
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But yeah, I really enjoy it every time I get the opportunity to do it.
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What's your experience like in the commentary box as I guess an athlete?
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Do you find it stressful or is it a smooth experience for you?
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It's not super stressful for me.
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I think especially when I'm not anchoring the cast, I've done a few for national competitions
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where I'm in charge and that can be a little bit stressful sometimes.
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I think by doing the commentary, I've definitely developed some empathy for commentators for
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the details they miss and the mistakes they make.
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You would never think it but you've just got so much going on in your head, you're always
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thinking of what to say next.
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It's so easy to forget that this isn't the hype way of the route, someone else actually
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did an extra move or especially in bouldering when there's so much going on, you might have
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a commentator say, oh, it's our first top of this boulder when someone else has already
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topped it but that's because not only are they tracking between four to eight different
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climbs at the same time but they've also got someone yabbering away in your ear telling
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you when the ad breaks are going to be.
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People have maybe one, two, even three different screens or sheets of paper with information
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in front of you, just so much coming in all at once.
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It is really easy to make mistakes but it also keeps it really exciting.
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As a co-commentator for IFSC, you don't have to deal with any of the extra noise and voices
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in your ears?
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Not as much.
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You still have some of the voices and the details and things but I think at the end
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of the day, if you mess up, it's not really on you, I guess.
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It's a little bit less stressful but you also have an opportunity to impart some new knowledge.
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Even a commentator like Matt won't necessarily have that first-hand information of what it's
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like to be behind the wall and what it's like to go through the process of a World Cup as
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an athlete.
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It's fun to share that side of it as well in a way that viewers at home don't always
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get to experience it like that.
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That's quite nice as well.
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Did you find that you had any go-to phrases like Matt does when you're doing the full
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commentary?
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Oh gosh, I probably do.
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I'm sure if I went back and listened, there's probably things that I would repeat.
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Not that I can think of off the top of my head but I do remember from doing a Youth
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Nationals event where I was commentating for three days in a row and you do just start
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to feel like a bit of a robot just saying the same things again and again and again.
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So I'm sure there's stuff in there that other people would pick up on that I'm not noticing
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but in the moment, you're just trying to think of interesting things to say that you've already
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said for the last however many hours.
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Yeah, couldn't bear to watch it back.
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Oh yeah.
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No one likes to hear their voice on tape.
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So yeah, I get that.
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It's the worst.
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So yeah, you were commentating already a bit in 2016, 2017.
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So you've kind of been on the scene for quite a while.
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How old were you when you first started climbing and first started competing?
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Yeah, so I first started climbing, I think I was around eight years old and at that point
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it was just for fun.
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I think as a kid and even as an adult, I've been super into video games, especially as
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a kid I was obsessed with the Tomb Raider series and I think in my mind I connected
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Tomb Raider with rock climbing.
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So I thought it would be a fun little sport for me to do because I was a pretty athletic
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kid and that I could run and I was strong but didn't really connect with ball sports.
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I wasn't super coordinated at them so I thought I'd get climbing a go for whatever reason
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and just fell instantly in love with it and just over time started climbing more and more
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and more.
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I thought I was really good at it, started doing competitions, realized I was actually
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not that good at it.
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And that really lit a fire underneath me that I'd never really experienced before.
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I think I started training really hard and saw the gains, saw the benefits, saw how fast
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I was improving and just got totally addicted to that experience and then that developed
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into a real ambition to pursue excellence within climbing I guess.
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So I started doing my first international competitions in 2012 when I was like 14, 15.
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Then progressed onto the senior circuit through 2015, 2016 and have competed on the World
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Cup circuit pretty much every year since then.
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I think the improvement I've made from coming at the very bottom of the pack at my
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first World Cups to now being able to make semi-finals all the once in a season, I've
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really enjoyed that experience.
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And I think for me that's a huge draw card of climbing is just I really enjoy that competitive
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side and I really enjoy just pushing my limits and always chasing the next thing.
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Yeah.
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So you went from youth to the adult circuit.
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How do you determine when you're ready to go into the adult portion?
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Yeah, that's a great question.
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I don't even know if you could say that I was ready when I did.
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I think especially when you're competing in somewhere like Australia, there kind of isn't,
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if you want to compete internationally, you've got the one competition a year at World Youth
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Championships and then there's not really anything else.
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We don't have a youth series, like a continental youth series.
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The competitions within the domestic calendar can be a little bit sporadic sometimes.
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So if you want to keep pushing the limits, then the senior World Cup circuit is kind
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of the thing that you've got, or at least it was when I was making that transition.
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I think I just knew that competing on the World Cup circuit was my dream and my goal
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within the sport.
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So I just decided that that was what I was going to do, I guess.
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I think initially it was super terrifying and super overwhelming.
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I definitely wasn't competitive by any stretch, but if you want to accomplish something like
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the first step to making that goal is trying.
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You're never going to win a World Cup if you never enter a World Cup.
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So I guess I just decided I had to take that leap and make it happen and see where it goes.
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So was it as simple as just deciding that you're going to sign up for the other one?
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No, I guess not.
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There is a qualification process, of course.
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You have to be able to be competitive nationally.
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For instance, I think I won my first senior nationals in 2015.
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So by being consistently competitive on the national circuit, I was qualified for the
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international circuit.
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So obviously you have to qualify, you have to have those results domestically.
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You also have to save a lot of money.
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All through high school I had a part-time job and I was just saving, saving, saving,
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and not really spending any of it.
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So there's also the financial side of things as well that's a big barrier.
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Once you have accomplished those things, it's just a matter of putting in the work, being
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brave and taking the leap, I guess.
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So just for the travel costs and the fact that it goes all around the world, I guess?
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Yeah, for sure.
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My first big World Cup trip was over three months of being in Europe overseas with some
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of my other teammates traveling all around.
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So yeah, the cost adds up pretty quickly and I didn't have any kind of financial sponsorship
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or support at that time as well.
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The Australian team is totally self-funded.
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So yeah, the financial side of things is definitely a big barrier that you have to be ready to
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tackle and there are a lot of sacrifices I think that come into making that happen.
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I talk about jumping onto this World Cup circuit like it's simple, but maybe that's just because
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it's such a priority for me that it's like, in my mind I was like, well, that's the thing
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I'm going to do so I'm going to do everything I can to make that happen.
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But ultimately, yeah, it's quite a heavy involved decision just putting aside the resources
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to even think about heading over there.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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It's like a huge sacrifice in terms of everything, like money, your time, what you dedicate your
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energy towards.
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It's a lot.
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Yeah, for sure.
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And I think that was something that maybe set me apart from some of my other competitors
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when I was young was that I was very open and forward about climbing being my priority
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even with school teachers and things that would be like, why haven't you finished your
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homework?
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And it's like, well, be honest with you, my priority wasn't finishing my homework, my
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priority was finishing my training.
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And that's maybe not everyone's way of looking at things, but it's definitely how I decided
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to tackle it.
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I think that's part of why I've been able to make climbing my job is that even before
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it was actually a job, you have to treat it as such and take yourself and it very seriously.
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Yeah, definitely.
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And I guess from being on the youth circuit and the adult circuit, how do you feel like
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you've grown throughout those years?
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Oh God, so much, so much.
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I'm definitely a completely different person to what I was when I was starting out.
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Yeah, I think, I don't know, being on the World Cup circuit, especially heading over
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there a lot of the time alone as the only Australian, I got these really unique opportunities
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to mix with a whole bunch of climbers from a whole bunch of different countries and really
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just like learn so much and it totally changed my work ethic as an athlete and my capacity
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to be independent and not to mention my climbing itself, my climbing ability and my approach
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to my training where I was able to grow a lot from those experiences, I think.
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How did you feel emotionally going through those times?
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Because it's really hard as a kid, I'm sure.
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I have seen just youth competitions and you can feel the air there.
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There's so much stress in the air and then afterwards everyone's crying and it's just
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like, it doesn't really feel great being there.
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Do you feel like there's a big emotional difference between how you perceived it as a youth versus
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an adult?
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Oh yeah.
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You talk about crying at competitions and I, as a kid definitely did my, or as a teenager,
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definitely did my fair share of crying at competitions.
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I think when I was starting out, when I was younger, it had more of a feel and end all
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feeling to it, competition climbing.
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If one competition went bad, I remember this one competition, it was right before I headed
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over to my first World Cup circuit and I came second in a senior comp.
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I remember just standing in the shower sobbing, just sobbing.
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I was like, oh my God, I'm not ready.
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I look back and I'm like, you know.
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I don't think, there were so many factors that played into me coming second in that
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event but as a young person, I just wasn't really able to look at the whole picture like
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that.
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If you're not first, you're last, it's kind of a alias sort of mentality.
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Yeah.
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It definitely had its lows and its highs.
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There were some times where doing it all and committing to it all has been really, really
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hard and then there are other times where it pays off and it feels like it's, you kind
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of trick yourself into feeling like it's been easy the whole time.
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Sounds kind of dramatic with the shower.
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Just standing in there crying, thinking that it's the end of the world.
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Yeah.
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I mean, yeah, when you're in your teens, it can feel like that sometimes.
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It can all feel like the, yeah, it can feel like the end of the world.
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You get older and you grow up and you start to be able to conceptualize things a little
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bit more.
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I think you see all the competitions that you've done in the past and then all the competitions
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you have yet to do in the future and it's a lot easier to look at it as just one piece
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of a greater puzzle.
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Whereas when it's your first just stepping onto the scene, it can feel like this is the
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moment, this is the only moment, this is everything that your life has come to.
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Then I'm 26 now, I'm not old by any means, but old enough to kind of realize, oh, I've
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been competing for 11 years now and probably competing for a good few more years to go.
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So it's kind of all just part of the journey.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So previously you also mentioned that oftentimes you would be the only Australian at the World
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Cups.
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And so kind of just wanted to dive into climbing in Australia since it's still, I guess, sort
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of a developing sport there.
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Well I guess first of all, you just came off of the national bouldering or the bouldering
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nationals.
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And I saw you took a really big fall.
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That shocked me.
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That's like the biggest fall that I think I've seen in a competition recently.
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I'll link it in the show notes for everyone to see.
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But yeah, in general, how did it go?
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Yeah.
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I can mention that fall, that was definitely the biggest fall I've ever taken in climbing,
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like comp or otherwise.
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And it was pretty scary.
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Coming into this competition, had some pretty big goals.
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I think bouldering nationals had kind of always gone badly for me.
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I feel like I've had really great performances on sort of all levels of the domestic circuit.
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I'd like won team selection events and things like that.
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But then when bouldering nationals came around, I'd never been able to even make finals.
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I think my best result was like eighth.
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So I definitely felt like a little bit of pressure going into this event that I was
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putting on myself to be able to sort of break that curse, I guess.
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But yeah, I think this event was like one of those bouldering events where I feel like
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my kind of headspace was at its best.
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My physical shape was probably the best it's been for bouldering and yeah, was just like
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able to be really consistent throughout the rounds.
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And so when I finished my semi-final and knew that I was progressing to the next round,
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that was a really emotional experience.
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And then yeah, to climb as well as I did in the finals and make a podium as well felt
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like the culmination of almost a decade of really, really hard work on probably my less
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proficient discipline of the two.
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So yeah, it was a really emotional experience.
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I think I surprised myself in a lot of ways regarding the massive fall I took on the second
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finals boulder.
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Like I was super rattled and super scared and then still managed to like pull back on
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and top of the boulder and I was the only person in the round who managed to finish
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that block.
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And so yeah, it was a yeah, that comp was a big moment for me and like something I think
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I'll be proud of for a really long time.
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Yeah, is bouldering something that you actually enjoy competing in or are you kind of just
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doing it because of the whole combined format?
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Oh no, I really love bouldering and I really love competing in bouldering.
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I think bouldering has definitely changed a lot in the time that I've been competing
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and I think maybe sometimes it doesn't feel like quite like the sport that I initially
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signed up for and I think that's why I gravitate towards, well part of why I gravitate towards
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LEAD a little bit more, it's a little bit more classic in terms of the elements of climbing
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that I really resonate with and that got me into the sport.
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But no, I do really enjoy bouldering.
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I just think on an international level I would like to be a little bit more competitive than
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I am I think, whereas in LEAD I feel like I'm continually progressing.
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So I totally err towards that discipline a little bit more than boulder per se.
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But I think this event also showed me that that's changing, like I am becoming more
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proficient in the modern style and the work is paying off.
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So I don't know, in this past 12 months I think my attitude towards bouldering has changed
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a little bit and I think there's more room to grow in that discipline than I maybe thought
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there was.
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I guess I'm kind of surprised that you think LEAD is still a little bit more old school
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because they've definitely been setting some scary stuff for LEAD as well.
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Like I've seen some sketchy starts where you just have to like start on a pretty big jump
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or they've set some like lache moves in the middle that could be kind of stopper moves.
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Do you feel like it's going towards this like new school style in LEAD as well or is it
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just like it's alright?
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Yeah, they're definitely implementing more sort of new school movements into LEAD.
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But at the end of the day, like the fact that you only have one go in LEAD and you know
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the split is as a result of you know exactly where you fall off on the route.
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I think like these sorts of low percentage moves that take a little bit of time to learn
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before you can do them just don't lend well to the scoring system within LEAD.
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So I think there's only ever going to be like so much room for new school parkoury comp
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style moves in LEAD and like yeah typically LEAD still comes down to like a matter of
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who's the fittest and who's the strongest and who can kind of hold on for the longest.
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And yeah that's like part of LEAD climbing that I really, really enjoy.
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But you know it's nice to have a few little crazy comp moves in there as well.
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But yeah I think we're also seeing a lot of like athletes who are previously boulder specialists,
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especially like the more power centered boulder specialists starting to perform a lot more
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consistently in LEAD than they perhaps were in in bouldering to begin with.
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So oh then they are in bouldering now sorry.
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Yeah so I think it sort of remains a little bit more old school out of the two.
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Okay yeah.
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So yeah now back to the Australia stuff.
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How do you feel about it being a developing sport in Australia and also in general just
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like Australia being kind of far from everything and like the long travel.
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I feel like I've heard that's a pretty big issue.
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How do you deal with those sorts of things?
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Yeah as far as like the development of climbing within Australia I think you'd maybe be hard
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pressed to find a country where climbing is growing faster than in Australia.
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I think like the number of gyms that have appeared in just the last five years is mind
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blowing and so it's growing really fast which presents its own set of problems in terms
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of like the development of climbing as like a high performance sport if the certain aspects
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of the sport are growing way faster than others.
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So that's really complex in and of itself and we're not really seeing like the growth
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of climbing flow into like support of high level athletes yet.
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So that plays into the issue of Australia being just generally speaking really really
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far away from the majority of the comp climbing circuit which yeah adds a lot of barriers
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to people who are like to aspiring competition climbers you know.
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I always feel quite jealous of like Europeans who for them going to a World Cup is like
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a weekend away from home and then for us going to a World Cup is like okay well not going
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00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:08,840
to be able to save for a deposit on a house this year because you know I have to pay the
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equivalent of a mortgage to like go and do this thing and it's my dream no one's making
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me do it I'm choosing to do it you know.
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Just wanting to like just silly things like oh I'd love to buy a new bike or I'd love
355
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to buy a new laptop or you know I haven't replaced my phones in six years eight years
356
00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:36,640
whatever like those are all things that just have to go on hold just as a result of climbing
357
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being of Australia being so far away from the rest of the climbing scene.
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So it can be tough sometimes but again like I said you know no one's making us do it so
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sometimes you have to swallow that pill and just keep on keeping on.
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00:27:51,660 --> 00:27:56,240
Do you end up kind of like staying in Europe for a while I think you mentioned you stayed
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for like three months before.
362
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Yeah the way I've found works best for me is if I can pick a city usually in Innsbruck
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in Austria and rent an apartment like or sublet an apartment from somebody rather than paying
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like the extortionate Airbnb fees just paying like a standard monthly rent for a room and
365
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:26,840
keeping that room for like a whole three months and then you can just then you can treat yeah
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World Cups as like a more of like a weekend or a couple weeks you go away you do the World
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Cups you come back to the home base we've got you know all of your creature comforts
368
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and your luggage and whatnot and yeah rather than rather than like moving around a lot
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and paying a lot for really expensive accommodation or you know flying to Europe coming back flying
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there again I like to keep that home base it's just like a little bit cheaper and a
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little bit like logistically easier I think for me.
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Do you ever like stay and train in Europe or is all your training done back in Australia?
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No I usually I'll usually try and prepare for the World Cups in Europe at least that
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last two to four weeks before I start my season I'll try to train in Europe but you know there's
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a it's like it's a it's a very clever careful balancing act because you know you only have
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a certain number of days that you can stay within the Schengen zone the like European
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visa zone without without having an extended visa and so you know you've got to think like
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okay if I'm going to do these events then I can train for three weeks before the World
379
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,160
Cup season starts in Europe but you know if I skip this event I can do a little bit of
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extra training or if I skip the training I can do a little bit like a few more comps
381
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so yeah it gets quite quite strategic in that sense.
382
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,680
Yeah there's a lot of planning that goes into it.
383
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:03,200
Yeah definitely.
384
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:12,920
And how's how's like your training in Australia like is it good for a lead or better for bouldering
385
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,500
or do you have like coaches?
386
00:30:15,500 --> 00:30:19,840
I would say I'll stick with for the most part training in Melbourne because that's where
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I live.
388
00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:33,440
I would say for bouldering it's decent it's hard to find like a lots of hard blocks to
389
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:38,000
to train on but we have we have like quite a few nice gyms.
390
00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:42,480
I think you have to get somewhat creative with your training it has to be quite structured
391
00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,200
because you know you're not going to have like all of the resources that you could want
392
00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:51,760
but you know if you've got like a decent spray wall and a fingerboard and you know a weights
393
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:56,840
gym and that sort of thing there's there's quite a lot you can do.
394
00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:04,320
For lead it's gotten better in the last sort of year year and a half but still not still
395
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:05,320
not great.
396
00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:11,520
I think unless a gym sets roots specifically for me it would I would be hard pressed to
397
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:20,240
find anything much harder than like 7c 7c plus in a gym which you know world cup roots
398
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:27,520
start at 8b 8b plus so you know most of my lead training will happen on a spray wall
399
00:31:27,520 --> 00:31:33,000
when I'm in Melbourne whereas when I go overseas I like really take that opportunity to you
400
00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:38,720
know you go somewhere like Innsbruck where maybe there's like 30 roots 8b and above and
401
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:42,400
you just try to get in as much as you can while you're there.
402
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:48,720
Yeah do you have any thoughts on how how to like grow the Australian team and how you
403
00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:55,640
think it could be better funded?
404
00:31:55,640 --> 00:32:04,880
I think I think first and foremost the Australian team needs more opportunities to train and
405
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:13,360
climb together I think in the since like since COVID blew up initially I think we've had
406
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:20,280
one training camp as a team which was announced a week before the camp started and I think
407
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:27,520
we had maybe five or six people turn out most of which lived in the city that it was being
408
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:33,640
held so yeah the Australian team is like very disjointed we don't get a lot of opportunities
409
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:37,760
to come together and climb together and climb on like high level roots with high level roots
410
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:48,840
setting coaching is quite limited so I think it would be yeah a lot of it's yeah it's really
411
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:53,520
tough and then the idea of like the funding stuff that I've honestly no idea like how
412
00:32:53,520 --> 00:33:00,880
to how to grow the funding of Australian climbing I think I'm so focused on growing the funding
413
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:09,960
of Campbell's climbing you know but yeah I think if the if there was like maybe more
414
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:15,440
cohesion between like amongst the team and then maybe more like cooperation between the
415
00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:19,040
team and the gyms we might be able to get a little bit more going but you know like
416
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:23,080
it is it is improving it is getting better in some ways and then it's very stagnant in
417
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:28,880
others well I guess like stagnant in what ways just like the setting we're growing in
418
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:33,760
terms of the calibre of our athletes but stagnant in terms of things like those those training
419
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:40,560
camps training events having consistent competition schedules as well like for this year we didn't
420
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:45,680
have a lead nationals and we ended up having to have a lead selection which was just like
421
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:51,600
a like a sort of tailored down version of a lead nationals with only a qualification
422
00:33:51,600 --> 00:34:02,600
round you know it happened at from like 7am to 3pm on a Friday you know so yeah it's quite
423
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:07,240
interesting that there's so many more gyms and like so much money within the climbing
424
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:14,580
industry at a commercial level but then you know we can't get venues to host a lead nationals
425
00:34:14,580 --> 00:34:20,040
for a couple of days or you know host a training camp for an afternoon that sort of thing so
426
00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:26,200
yeah it's it's progressing in so many ways and then in other ways yeah not much change
427
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:32,480
is really happening if that makes sense yeah I mean I guess I'm actually not sure if it's
428
00:34:32,480 --> 00:34:38,120
if there's a lot of money at the commercial level I've heard a lot of commercial gyms
429
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:47,360
actually struggle quite a bit just to like break even I've like because I wanted to like
430
00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:53,080
own a gym at some point or that was like a goal and I looked into it a bit and it seemed
431
00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:59,480
like you had to be pretty well off just to get it started yeah I think I think I just
432
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:05,360
look at like we've got some we've got some like big franchises of gyms within Australia
433
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:12,320
that like opening sort of venue after venue and I think also I do work part time at a
434
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:19,680
climbing gym so I get that little insight on the amount of people that are coming through
435
00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,160
some of the facilities so I think yeah and I mean and also just you know like I said
436
00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:28,360
this year number the increase in the number of climbing gyms that we have is kind of telling
437
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:35,480
that there's there's something here you know but yeah it hasn't it hasn't translated into
438
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:40,920
high performance just yet which makes sense and it'll it'll come along I just think we
439
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:45,480
haven't figured out exactly what the next step is and I'm not sure either what the next
440
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:53,600
step is yeah hopefully it'll come and that sort of reminds me of the athletes commission
441
00:35:53,600 --> 00:36:01,620
I'm not sure if that has any bearing on how it can affect like climbing at like the Australian
442
00:36:01,620 --> 00:36:11,280
national level but yeah I was wondering a bit about the athletes commission and what
443
00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:17,160
I guess first of all what is it and why haven't we really heard about it because I feel like
444
00:36:17,160 --> 00:36:23,040
this is the first year that we heard anything about it yeah this is it's interesting it's
445
00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:29,680
one of those things that I think when you're an athlete in the circuit it's something that
446
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:33,880
you know about and you kind of just assume that other people do but I guess it's like
447
00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:38,880
a very it's a very valid point that like up until now how would how would the general
448
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:42,440
public have known that there was an athletes commission that you know every world championship
449
00:36:42,440 --> 00:36:46,480
we have a vote you know where there's like ballot papers and everything or this year
450
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:53,880
it was online but yeah basically the basically the IFSC athletes commission is a collection
451
00:36:53,880 --> 00:37:02,000
of athletes that act as kind of like an advisory voice to the IFSC and our president and vice
452
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:09,180
president Sean O'Coxie and Sean McColl sit on the IFSC board so basically we have meetings
453
00:37:09,180 --> 00:37:16,440
every month where we discuss a myriad of different issues that pertain to athlete rights whether
454
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:23,800
it be considering like certain rules or the setup of venues the way athletes are maybe
455
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:27,960
treated within those venues all sorts of things like here's a sometimes you talk about the
456
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:33,480
sustainability of events and whether or not we as athletes can support certain events
457
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:37,580
going ahead in the way that they are you know we cover a lot of too many different topics
458
00:37:37,580 --> 00:37:44,740
probably for the amount of time we spend actually meeting together but yeah we advise Sean and
459
00:37:44,740 --> 00:37:51,440
Shawna on how we feel about certain issues and then they present that feedback to the
460
00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:58,960
IFSC board so yeah for me I thought I decided to go for it this year's world championship
461
00:37:58,960 --> 00:38:05,560
because as far as I know we've never had an athlete from the Oceania region on the athletes
462
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:11,840
commission before and so I thought it was a really unique opportunity to give the perspective
463
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:17,440
not only of my region but just generally smaller climbing nations with less funding I think
464
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:22,520
we have like very different issues to some of the other nations and so I thought it was
465
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:30,880
really important that someone you know amongst that group of climbers was able to get in
466
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:37,160
there and I think I'm a relatively outspoken member of the climbing community and because
467
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:43,580
I've been solo for a lot of the world cups I'm quite well connected amongst the climbing
468
00:38:43,580 --> 00:38:49,800
community so I thought I was in like a unique position to be able to hopefully you know
469
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:55,760
get that position which I end up doing and yeah being able to make a difference over
470
00:38:55,760 --> 00:39:00,640
the course of my term and also just you know learn more about how the sport works in other
471
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:05,640
places so that then I can hopefully impart that knowledge upon my own region and maybe
472
00:39:05,640 --> 00:39:09,840
you know answer some of these questions that we've been talking about so far that we don't
473
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,360
really quite have the answers to yet.
474
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:18,440
Yeah what kind of I guess causes are you hoping to champion as part of the Athletes Commission?
475
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:27,080
I think I would love to see the World Cup circuit be a bit more like geographically
476
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:32,720
inclusive you know being laid out in a way that it makes a little bit more sense for
477
00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:38,960
athletes who don't live in Europe to you know be able to come to spaten events in succession.
478
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:43,920
I have like a notepad somewhere where I've written out a bunch of this stuff.
479
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:48,480
Please excuse this brief intermission but I would just like to take some time and remind
480
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:54,320
you that if you are enjoying this podcast please follow and rate it on your preferred
481
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:55,940
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482
00:39:55,940 --> 00:40:00,500
If you're watching on YouTube be sure to subscribe and hit the like button.
483
00:40:00,500 --> 00:40:05,400
Anything helps to push this podcast out to more people and get even more amazing guests
484
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:06,400
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485
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:07,400
Back to the show.
486
00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:11,080
I had like a little brainstorm that I did when I signed up for the Athletes Commission
487
00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:15,960
and what I wanted to get out of being there.
488
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:20,120
I think yeah for me there were the sort of geographical inclusivity that we've been talking
489
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:21,120
about.
490
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:28,720
I think I'd like to see greater regulation of route setting practices within the sport
491
00:40:28,720 --> 00:40:32,240
so kind of standardizing route setting a little bit.
492
00:40:32,240 --> 00:40:37,140
I think at the moment route setters have a lot of freedom or the potential for a lot
493
00:40:37,140 --> 00:40:40,120
of freedom to influence results.
494
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:44,380
Essentially what a competition looks like, what a round looks like is almost entirely
495
00:40:44,380 --> 00:40:49,960
up to the head route setter as to what they see climbing being like.
496
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:54,320
I don't think any of our route setters are trying to influence the results of competitions
497
00:40:54,320 --> 00:41:01,280
but nevertheless the potential for that to happen is there.
498
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:08,360
More regulation I guess into what climbing rounds should look like, what is the style
499
00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:12,600
of climbing, what are these different disciplines trying to test.
500
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:21,300
I also would like to see more growth made in terms of athlete health, the BMI Red S
501
00:41:21,300 --> 00:41:25,200
discussion as well.
502
00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:33,120
And just improving the general treatment of athletes and the evaluation of athletes within
503
00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:34,120
the sport.
504
00:41:34,120 --> 00:41:39,520
At the end of the day there's so many different roles that make climbing competitions happen
505
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:43,320
but at the end of the day climbing comps don't happen unless you have athletes on the wall
506
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:45,360
putting on a show.
507
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:53,560
And sometimes it doesn't feel like that's really acknowledged when you look at the prize
508
00:41:53,560 --> 00:42:00,480
pool that's put up for an IFSC event for instance or the fact that you know we, I guess, you
509
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,400
know finish, you'll have Yanya Gumbra finishing a world championship and then having to walk
510
00:42:04,400 --> 00:42:12,200
out into a crowd of people swarming her and it's not really like safe or practical.
511
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:17,960
Yeah, the more that I think about it, the more I was like, not just in climbing but
512
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:26,520
all sports in general how athletes are kind of a product I guess that people kind of just
513
00:42:26,520 --> 00:42:31,480
like view and watch for a bit and then if they like age out or they get injured it's
514
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:36,200
kind of just like you're discarded now, you're like an old product.
515
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:37,880
Does it kind of feel like that?
516
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:42,840
Yeah, product is a really good word for it because I think at the moment we're viewed
517
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:49,080
as products or sometimes I feel like we're even viewed as consumers.
518
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:56,800
We come to the event and the event is put on for us despite there being a, we're standing
519
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,920
in a stadium of thousands of people.
520
00:42:59,920 --> 00:43:04,200
Sometimes it feels like the events are put on for us and we should be just like grateful
521
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:08,120
that this is happening so that we can do the thing we want to do which in some cases is
522
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:09,120
true.
523
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:15,880
But on the other hand, we're also almost like employees of climbing.
524
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:21,680
We're in some ways the performers that are putting on the show, these people, these thousands
525
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:28,440
of people are coming to these stadiums to watch us perform.
526
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:32,280
And so yeah, there's like a little bit of a disconnect there I guess but I think product
527
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:40,240
is a really good word for it, we're viewed as like the end product that's put out there
528
00:43:40,240 --> 00:43:50,760
when really we're, it's on the basis of our labor that these events are able to draw in
529
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:52,640
the crowds that they do I guess.
530
00:43:52,640 --> 00:44:00,600
Yeah, it's a little bit dark though but I guess these are all issues we should try to
531
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:01,840
solve.
532
00:44:01,840 --> 00:44:08,000
You also mentioned about route setters and keeping everything more consistent.
533
00:44:08,000 --> 00:44:12,840
I always wondered if it would ever happen where someone would like pay off a route setter
534
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:18,640
or like bribe them to set so that someone could specifically win.
535
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:24,120
Oh, look, there's one of those topics it's really hard to get into without putting your
536
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:25,120
foot in your mouth.
537
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:33,520
I think there are certainly events in the past where you can look back on and you see
538
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,860
some things happening that are just a little bit suspicious.
539
00:44:37,860 --> 00:44:41,960
But I think also just yeah, just the idea that like a particular route setter who might
540
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:47,800
be head route setter could say internally, you know, oh, this athlete I really like or
541
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:53,000
this athlete I've potentially been paid off to set for is really good at this style.
542
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:59,480
There's nothing stopping me from setting this style on every single boulder if I as the
543
00:44:59,480 --> 00:45:05,840
head route setter want that to be the vibe of the competition.
544
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:10,640
Just more regulations put in place that ensure a diversity of boulders across a round.
545
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:11,640
Yeah, interesting.
546
00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:14,960
I kind of brought that up as just like a thought.
547
00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:17,400
I didn't know it had actually happened.
548
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,540
I don't want to of course like name any names or point anything at this but yeah, the potential
549
00:45:21,540 --> 00:45:28,600
to influence the results of climbing competitions through the route setting is very real.
550
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:32,680
And so I think that that's something we need to think about while the sport is a bit younger.
551
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:38,180
We have a good opportunity to like build a base, you know, upon which we have safe and
552
00:45:38,180 --> 00:45:43,600
fair competitions rather than the sport getting bigger and bigger and bigger before we've
553
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:48,200
kind of put those foundations in place and it's maybe harder to implement them further
554
00:45:48,200 --> 00:45:49,560
down the road.
555
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:54,880
Sort of related to that, do you feel like, so I guess that's sort of in reference to
556
00:45:54,880 --> 00:46:00,120
maybe specific like competitions but in general with like the boulder and lead combined format,
557
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:05,120
do you feel like they've been doing a pretty good job of keeping that even?
558
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,400
I think so.
559
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:16,440
I've been pleasantly surprised with how much I've enjoyed watching the combined format
560
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:20,200
and how much I like look forward to competing in the combined format.
561
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,880
I think at first when I saw the like point system, I thought it seemed a little bit like
562
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:25,640
a game show or something.
563
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:30,080
It seemed a bit silly that like, oh, you get this many points for doing this and that many
564
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:31,480
points for that.
565
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:35,700
And I worried that, you know, it was favor one discipline over the other.
566
00:46:35,700 --> 00:46:42,280
But like ultimately I think you really do have to be good at both because in any given
567
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:47,400
round the boulder round might be worth more, the lead round might be worth more.
568
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:52,720
So like you have to be prepared to perform in either of them.
569
00:46:52,720 --> 00:46:59,600
And yeah, so far I think it's been like really interesting to see how different rounds maybe
570
00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:03,600
sway a bit more towards one discipline or the other, but it seems to balance out in
571
00:47:03,600 --> 00:47:04,600
a sense.
572
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:08,960
Like I haven't seen, you know, that like, yeah, you just, you have to be good at both
573
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:09,960
at the end of the day.
574
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,560
I think that's like really cool to watch that you've got to be able to, you've got to be
575
00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:14,720
ready to take the opportunity in either round.
576
00:47:14,720 --> 00:47:15,720
Yeah.
577
00:47:15,720 --> 00:47:16,720
I mean, definitely cool to watch.
578
00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:24,680
I don't know how it's like actually having to do that and experience it as an athlete.
579
00:47:24,680 --> 00:47:34,620
But yeah, going back to athletes commission, do you feel like the IFSC listens to the athletes
580
00:47:34,620 --> 00:47:39,320
either like within athletes commission or outside of athletes commission?
581
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:46,720
Um, I think being a part of the athletes commission is very new for me.
582
00:47:46,720 --> 00:47:54,040
I think I'm really yet to see whether or not our voice is heard.
583
00:47:54,040 --> 00:48:01,080
Just because, yeah, we haven't really, yeah, I just haven't really had any instances yet
584
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:06,360
where we've presented something like really big and really important to the IFSC.
585
00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:09,000
And they've kind of had the opportunity to respond.
586
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:16,920
They could probably, the IFSC could probably seek out feedback a little bit more than they
587
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:19,880
already do from the athletes and from the athletes commission.
588
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:24,680
But at the same time, like I am seeing work happen to improve that, like to improve the
589
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:27,520
communication between the athletes and the IFSC.
590
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:33,120
So yeah, I think my perspective is kind of still pending on that question.
591
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:37,480
Well, you know, ask me in a year maybe and we'll see how I feel about it.
592
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:39,880
Okay, yeah, we'll follow up.
593
00:48:39,880 --> 00:48:46,800
Yeah, another one of the things that you mentioned being on your list of things to talk about
594
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:51,880
in terms of athletes commission is the Red S issue.
595
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:56,880
And I mean, I know that's something everyone's talking about and hopefully they will be taking
596
00:48:56,880 --> 00:48:58,560
some kind of action on it.
597
00:48:58,560 --> 00:49:03,760
I guess that's still to be determined.
598
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:08,160
But you also mentioned that you've sort of had your own experience with it.
599
00:49:08,160 --> 00:49:10,840
Is that something that you'd want to go into?
600
00:49:10,840 --> 00:49:21,680
Yeah, yeah, like it's definitely something I'm happy to talk about because I think it's
601
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:32,480
really easy to look at the minority of athletes who lose a ton of weight and see huge increases
602
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:34,680
in their performance.
603
00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:44,480
Whereas I think the experience of quite a lot of us is that we fell into really negative
604
00:49:44,480 --> 00:49:50,280
habits around eating and trying desperately to lose weight and being as small as possible
605
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:54,040
and just kind of crashed and burned in a lot of senses.
606
00:49:54,040 --> 00:50:00,960
I think for every athlete who loses 5, 10 kilos and becomes a Superstar World Cup winner,
607
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:08,560
it's probably 10, 20, 30 athletes who lost a bunch of weight and ended up in the hospital
608
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:16,440
or ended up quitting climbing and not competing or not reaching their goals and having a myriad
609
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:18,560
of mental and physical health problems.
610
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:27,160
And so I think that's kind of more my experience of, well, not so much my experience because
611
00:50:27,160 --> 00:50:29,200
obviously I'm still climbing and I'm still climbing well.
612
00:50:29,200 --> 00:50:37,480
But I think my experience of when I was suffering through my eating disorder was just having
613
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:44,680
so much trouble maintaining my mood, maintaining my training, maintaining my weight, all these
614
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:46,520
fluctuations and all these issues.
615
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:57,440
And I think it's quite damaging, I guess, to paint Red S in the light that it has been
616
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,360
painted in that it's like this shortcut to success.
617
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:03,840
Whereas I think in a lot of instances, it's quite the opposite.
618
00:51:03,840 --> 00:51:06,720
It's quite destructive to people's climbing careers.
619
00:51:06,720 --> 00:51:13,160
Well, I had no idea that it was so common.
620
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:19,600
When you were experiencing it, were you aware that you were doing it or was it just kind
621
00:51:19,600 --> 00:51:25,600
of like the side effect of the sport and it just didn't even, I guess, register to you
622
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:27,960
that you were doing something harmful?
623
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:34,080
I think in a lot of ways, having an eating disorder felt mandatory in the sport.
624
00:51:34,080 --> 00:51:42,760
And I know how horrible and dark that sounds, but it felt like if I was turning up to a
625
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:48,720
competition and I didn't look thin enough, then people would assume that I didn't care
626
00:51:48,720 --> 00:51:54,600
enough or that I wasn't dedicated.
627
00:51:54,600 --> 00:52:00,760
I think there was a lot of discussion and a lot of rhetoric around, well, this is how
628
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:05,800
little I eat leading up to a competition or, oh, I'm doing so well today, I haven't eaten
629
00:52:05,800 --> 00:52:10,080
since blah, blah, blah.
630
00:52:10,080 --> 00:52:16,240
And I think that's changing in a lot of ways now that we're actually having the discussion
631
00:52:16,240 --> 00:52:22,720
and it's becoming more publicly known, these sort of darker aspects of the sport.
632
00:52:22,720 --> 00:52:27,320
It felt like in the community that I grew up in, it kind of felt like it was something
633
00:52:27,320 --> 00:52:34,560
that I had to be doing and that's sort of how I fell into it and yeah, really started
634
00:52:34,560 --> 00:52:36,320
to struggle with it, I guess.
635
00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:37,320
Oh, wow.
636
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:41,880
So it was like an actual discussion amongst athletes, like this is something that you
637
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:42,880
guys would talk about?
638
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:46,040
Yeah, I think so.
639
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:48,160
Not when, like for me, not when it started.
640
00:52:48,160 --> 00:52:54,440
I think it was just, I felt like it was very much just this number on the scales that I
641
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:58,200
wanted to push down and felt very objective in that sense.
642
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:04,660
And then it kind of started to develop into more of like an emotional, an emotional waiting
643
00:53:04,660 --> 00:53:07,120
on the number on the scale.
644
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:13,440
But yeah, I definitely know, I remember a lot of instances within the sport where people
645
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:19,360
would be having these discussions of like, I don't eat between this time and this time
646
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:26,520
or I only eat this many calories in a day or in the however long before the competition
647
00:53:26,520 --> 00:53:29,840
I'm trying to lose this much.
648
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:34,840
And while these discussions are happening, what you're seeing, like what I'm seeing in
649
00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:40,720
front of me is athletes getting worse and worse and worse at their climbing and having
650
00:53:40,720 --> 00:53:45,400
these like massive detriments to their performance as they're like desperately chasing the lowest
651
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:47,560
number on the scale that they can.
652
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:52,120
And then what people are telling you is that eating disorders are terrible in climbing,
653
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:53,480
but they get you really good.
654
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:57,520
You're going to be really like, you know, it's really strong when I was as light as
655
00:53:57,520 --> 00:53:59,920
possible, but you know, then it was really bad for me.
656
00:53:59,920 --> 00:54:02,640
But then I think like, that's not actually really the case.
657
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:09,580
Like I think a lot of climbers who have tried to lose a lot of weight or have these struggles
658
00:54:09,580 --> 00:54:17,160
with eating and with their body image and such like tend to see a lot more detriment
659
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:23,280
than benefit in actual fact, but that's not really like the narrative that we see around
660
00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:24,280
it.
661
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:30,960
How did you sort of get out of that, the eating disorder for yourself?
662
00:54:30,960 --> 00:54:35,680
Like I said, it started off as this like very objective goal to just like reduce the number
663
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:40,680
on the scale and then it started to turn like a little bit more emotional.
664
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:46,920
I had more of like an emotional connection to like whether I was perceiving myself as
665
00:54:46,920 --> 00:54:54,580
light enough to be, you know, a self-respecting professional climber or whatever.
666
00:54:54,580 --> 00:54:59,980
And then that for me turned into quite a serious like binge eating issue.
667
00:54:59,980 --> 00:55:02,680
So binge eating, restricting, and that's sort of the pattern you see with a lot of
668
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:08,400
climbers is trying really hard to adhere to these like rules that these climbers are setting
669
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:12,680
of, you know, not eating this much or not eating, you know, these times, whatever it
670
00:55:12,680 --> 00:55:13,840
might be.
671
00:55:13,840 --> 00:55:18,800
And so you, yeah, you fall into these patterns of working really hard to try and be as thin
672
00:55:18,800 --> 00:55:19,800
as possible.
673
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:24,520
Eventually you can't keep up with this image of perfection.
674
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:29,240
You set yourself and you slip up and you binge and then you think, oh, that was a horrible
675
00:55:29,240 --> 00:55:32,880
mistake, I have to erase what I've done.
676
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,640
And so you restrict harder, which then means you binge harder because, you know, your body
677
00:55:36,640 --> 00:55:41,760
just it doesn't let you start like in a lot of instances, it just won't let you start
678
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:43,080
yourself like that.
679
00:55:43,080 --> 00:55:51,080
And so I think for me, I had to just like completely, I had to like completely break
680
00:55:51,080 --> 00:56:01,080
the cycle and learn to like, if I had these like these binges, these slip ups, I had to
681
00:56:01,080 --> 00:56:05,320
just learn to accept that they happened and that they didn't, like it wasn't a mistake
682
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:10,520
that needed to be rectified or fixed, that it was my body telling me that it was underfueled
683
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:18,960
and under-resourced and that I needed to, yeah, if I had like a slip up and I felt like
684
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:24,240
and I had a binge, it was because I wasn't treating my body with the respect it needed.
685
00:56:24,240 --> 00:56:29,240
So rather than depriving it even more, what I needed to do was give it that respect and
686
00:56:29,240 --> 00:56:36,040
then eventually over the course of years, managed to sort of, for the most part, heal
687
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:41,440
that relationship between, you know, my body and my mind and my perception of myself.
688
00:56:41,440 --> 00:56:47,760
And I still have more difficult days, more difficult periods, but yeah, just learning
689
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:53,040
to see those signs and like act accordingly, I guess, if that makes sense.
690
00:56:53,040 --> 00:56:54,640
It's a very personal journey.
691
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:58,280
So I think everyone goes through it differently.
692
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:06,400
But it's good to hear that you've mostly worked through it and hopefully it's not still going
693
00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:11,720
on, especially with all the attention that's been brought to it.
694
00:57:11,720 --> 00:57:19,480
I think people are just a lot more on alert in the public and hopefully among athletes
695
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:20,480
as well.
696
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:24,040
Yeah, it's a very complicated topic and it is very full on.
697
00:57:24,040 --> 00:57:32,440
I've talked about it a lot on my social media, but I guess I learned to just incorporate
698
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:43,360
the joy of food just into my daily routines and learning that if I felt like I was falling
699
00:57:43,360 --> 00:57:47,400
short of my goals within food, it was probably because my body was trying to tell me something
700
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:52,640
and learning to actually listen to my body and respect those messages that my body was
701
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:56,640
giving me rather than thinking my body was something that I had to fight against, that
702
00:57:56,640 --> 00:58:00,920
feelings of hunger or feelings of being unsatiated was something that I had to battle against.
703
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:06,320
It's actually a body trying to tell you something and you can probably get a lot more out of
704
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:10,560
listening to those messages than fighting against them.
705
00:58:10,560 --> 00:58:16,240
These days, do you still hear that kind of talk between athletes where it's about how
706
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:21,560
little you've ate or things like that?
707
00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:23,920
Definitely not to the same.
708
00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:28,640
No, I think the rhetoric has changed a lot, honestly.
709
00:58:28,640 --> 00:58:33,240
Weight management and weight loss is a part of climbing at the end of the day.
710
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:38,120
I think it's silly to pretend that it's not and it's something that as an athlete, you
711
00:58:38,120 --> 00:58:42,320
do have to be aware of, I guess.
712
00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:48,320
But I think the discussions are becoming a lot healthier and I think the discussions
713
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:56,640
I've been having with athletes are a lot more about what I've been saying.
714
00:58:56,640 --> 00:59:01,560
In the past, it might have been like, oh, when I am really hungry, I do this to make
715
00:59:01,560 --> 00:59:07,480
myself not hungry anymore or when I feel like I've eaten too many calories, I'm going to
716
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:09,120
do this to get rid of those calories.
717
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:13,680
That kind of used to be the discussion and now the discussion is more about like, yeah,
718
00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:17,540
when I'm feeling this way, I remember that this is my body trying to tell me something
719
00:59:17,540 --> 00:59:22,400
and that I need to change what I'm doing or I'm going to start to fall down a slippery
720
00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:23,400
slope.
721
00:59:23,400 --> 00:59:28,560
So it's a lot healthier, the discussion around it, which is an important step.
722
00:59:28,560 --> 00:59:34,160
But then at the same time, I think that doesn't mean that athletes aren't also suffering in
723
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:36,400
the background.
724
00:59:36,400 --> 00:59:39,680
You can say one thing and then also be struggling.
725
00:59:39,680 --> 00:59:40,680
Yeah.
726
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:45,000
Well, it's good to hear that it's improved a bit.
727
00:59:45,000 --> 00:59:52,640
And also related to this, had a Discord question come through asking what dichotomies, if any,
728
00:59:52,640 --> 01:00:00,640
are there in regards to the impact of Red-Ass between men and women competition climbers?
729
01:00:00,640 --> 01:00:08,880
This is another really interesting aspect of it as well, because I think the pressures
730
01:00:08,880 --> 01:00:19,280
to be small are similar across male and female athletes.
731
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:25,320
I think in the discussions around Red-Ass though, people tend to be more critical of
732
01:00:25,320 --> 01:00:30,740
women, which I mean, lo and behold, that's kind of how our society is in general.
733
01:00:30,740 --> 01:00:32,360
People are more critical of women.
734
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:37,880
But yeah, with regard to Red-Ass, there's a lot more discussion of how female athletes
735
01:00:37,880 --> 01:00:41,040
look and whether they look too skinny.
736
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:45,320
They look like, oh, she has a problem, she's anorexic.
737
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:50,480
But then in actual fact, I think the problem is just as big, if not bigger, within the
738
01:00:50,480 --> 01:00:51,720
men.
739
01:00:51,720 --> 01:00:57,320
But because when we lose weight, we maintain our muscle mass a lot more easily.
740
01:00:57,320 --> 01:00:59,740
So our general shape doesn't change.
741
01:00:59,740 --> 01:01:03,240
We still have these big biceps and big shoulders.
742
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:08,280
And so people think that it's not as much of a problem within the men.
743
01:01:08,280 --> 01:01:11,440
But from my experience, that's just not the case.
744
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:19,520
And I think we see a lot of men, if not more men, with dangerously low body fat levels
745
01:01:19,520 --> 01:01:26,080
as opposed to the women who look thin but maybe aren't necessarily suffering those Red-Ass
746
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:27,080
symptoms.
747
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:31,560
And so I think that's why developing screening is really important because you can't just
748
01:01:31,560 --> 01:01:33,680
tell if someone's sick by looking at them.
749
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:40,360
Yeah, I think that also brings up the important point that it's not great to discuss people's
750
01:01:40,360 --> 01:01:48,720
bodies, whether or not you think that it's concerning because there might not be an issue.
751
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:50,200
Yeah, for sure.
752
01:01:50,200 --> 01:01:58,320
I think it's really complicated to like, because if you're going to bring up the fact that
753
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:04,900
you think there is an issue with climbing athletes being underweight, that's inherently
754
01:02:04,900 --> 01:02:07,840
bringing bodies into the conversation.
755
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:13,520
But yeah, I think it needs to be a little bit more nuanced than this person looks like
756
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:14,520
they're sick.
757
01:02:14,520 --> 01:02:18,840
It needs to be a little bit more objective and scientific than that, I guess.
758
01:02:18,840 --> 01:02:22,320
Yeah, and it's hard to do that just looking through a screen.
759
01:02:22,320 --> 01:02:23,880
Yeah, 100%.
760
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:29,160
But yeah, was there anything else you wanted to touch on in terms of Red-Ass?
761
01:02:29,160 --> 01:02:33,880
Because otherwise we're just going to totally shift gears to maybe something a little happier.
762
01:02:33,880 --> 01:02:38,600
Yeah, I know, what a depressingly sad topic.
763
01:02:38,600 --> 01:02:47,360
No, I mean, unless you have any more questions about it, I think it's a huge issue within
764
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:49,280
climbing that we need to get on top of.
765
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:55,120
And I think having, we talk about not judging people's bodies, but then at the same time,
766
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:58,120
a lot of these athletes are the role models of the sport.
767
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:05,560
And I think my inclinations as a young person towards trying to lose weight, a lot of them
768
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:10,720
came from looking at the athletes who were leading the way, at the tops of podiums and
769
01:03:10,720 --> 01:03:15,400
things and seeing their body types and feeling like I needed to adhere to some kind of version
770
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:16,400
of that as well.
771
01:03:16,400 --> 01:03:30,440
And so if we're allowing Red-Ass athletes who embody these sort of negative weight loss
772
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:36,480
principles to represent the sport, then the problem is just going to self-perpetuate.
773
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:48,480
So I think we've got to do something to change the perception that people have of climbing.
774
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:56,120
And it might involve restricting the participation of certain athletes who meet certain criteria
775
01:03:56,120 --> 01:03:57,120
within the sport.
776
01:03:57,120 --> 01:03:58,680
Yeah, well put.
777
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:00,960
And thanks for going into your own story.
778
01:04:00,960 --> 01:04:05,920
I know that's not always easy to share and open up in that way.
779
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:09,320
So I appreciate that.
780
01:04:09,320 --> 01:04:16,600
But yeah, let's switch gears into something that's hopefully a bit less sad.
781
01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:24,080
Let's look forward to the Olympics that are coming up and the qualification process.
782
01:04:24,080 --> 01:04:32,280
I guess first of all, you had also wanted to, I mean, you were competing at the time
783
01:04:32,280 --> 01:04:36,520
when the 2021 Olympics were happening.
784
01:04:36,520 --> 01:04:42,800
And I saw a podcast that you did a long time ago that was before the qualification process
785
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:43,800
for that.
786
01:04:43,800 --> 01:04:51,400
I forget if it was before COVID or not, but I think, I mean, we all know that you did
787
01:04:51,400 --> 01:04:56,220
not end up representing Australia for the 2021 Olympics.
788
01:04:56,220 --> 01:05:00,720
So what happened in the qualifying process there?
789
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:08,400
It's funny, so this is also like a very sad, depressing topic.
790
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:15,800
I'm happy to get into it if you want to, but it's also like, yeah, it was a bad time.
791
01:05:15,800 --> 01:05:18,320
Yeah, I mean, no, it's if you want to.
792
01:05:18,320 --> 01:05:20,440
Oh yeah, I'm happy to discuss it.
793
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:25,240
Yeah, just if you wanted to get into something more fun, like it's not really that fun.
794
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:28,360
Okay, we'll do the fun part after.
795
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:37,440
So yeah, so basically going into the qualifications for the Tokyo Olympics, I was also the first
796
01:05:37,440 --> 01:05:38,440
seated athlete.
797
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:41,760
So I was the highest ranked athlete going into those qualifications and then the pandemic
798
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:45,660
hit and the event got canceled slash postponed.
799
01:05:45,660 --> 01:05:53,440
And so essentially the way the selection criteria worked was that if the event got canceled,
800
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:55,360
I was qualified for the Olympics.
801
01:05:55,360 --> 01:06:00,960
If the event went ahead, then it was obviously going to be a competition and whoever won
802
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:02,520
the event was going to go to the Olympics.
803
01:06:02,520 --> 01:06:07,360
But the problem there was that because within Australia and New Zealand, everything was
804
01:06:07,360 --> 01:06:12,680
so tightly locked down and the borders were so tightly controlled that running an event
805
01:06:12,680 --> 01:06:16,880
wouldn't necessarily mean that everybody would get to compete.
806
01:06:16,880 --> 01:06:20,480
So it was quite like a difficult time with things going back and forth.
807
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:25,240
The event was happening, then it wasn't, then it was, then it wasn't.
808
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:34,360
And eventually we got to the point where the event was going ahead and we all got there.
809
01:06:34,360 --> 01:06:37,440
The first day went kind of badly for me.
810
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:42,720
I think I false started in the speed, which meant that I had the worst ranking in the
811
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:45,920
brackets for the finals event.
812
01:06:45,920 --> 01:06:51,840
And then we were sitting in my hotel room, I was sitting there in my hotel room with
813
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:58,240
my partner, watching the news before the finals started and they announced on the news that
814
01:06:58,240 --> 01:07:04,760
the borders would be closing between all the states across Australia.
815
01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:08,960
Meaning that basically you either had to like, because we were in Sydney and I live in Melbourne,
816
01:07:08,960 --> 01:07:15,320
so we were going to have to leave Sydney to get back over the border in time or either
817
01:07:15,320 --> 01:07:22,760
be stuck in Sydney or have to like go through a two week hotel quarantine scenario.
818
01:07:22,760 --> 01:07:27,920
And my older sister at the time had just been diagnosed with stage three breast cancer.
819
01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:36,800
And so my parents really wanted me home to spend Christmas with my family and with my
820
01:07:36,800 --> 01:07:40,840
sister before she started chemotherapy, before she started her treatment.
821
01:07:40,840 --> 01:07:45,760
And so I went to the competition, I went into finals for isolation and I had no idea what
822
01:07:45,760 --> 01:07:47,680
to do.
823
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:53,840
And I was in tears the whole time, went out to climb, didn't do well in the speed round
824
01:07:53,840 --> 01:08:00,280
and like ultimately made the decision that I would leave the event, go home to be with
825
01:08:00,280 --> 01:08:05,000
my family because I wasn't sure if I would be able to qualify and I couldn't decide.
826
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:08,000
Yeah, it was just a horrible, tough decision.
827
01:08:08,000 --> 01:08:10,180
So at the end I left the event.
828
01:08:10,180 --> 01:08:14,840
And at the end of the event, I think out of the 20 athletes that were initially slated
829
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:19,920
to compete in the men's round, only seven men I think ended up finishing the competition
830
01:08:19,920 --> 01:08:22,320
and maybe even less women.
831
01:08:22,320 --> 01:08:28,300
Yeah, so that was like a really, really like tough call and something that I like grappled
832
01:08:28,300 --> 01:08:31,120
with for a really, really long time afterwards.
833
01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:35,000
And like I look back and I still don't even really know if I made the right decision on
834
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:38,840
whether or not I should have stayed and stuck it out and like dealt with those consequences
835
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:41,440
or gone home and been with my family.
836
01:08:41,440 --> 01:08:45,440
But you know, I think now I look back at it at the end of the day, like it is what it
837
01:08:45,440 --> 01:08:47,760
is, what happened happened.
838
01:08:47,760 --> 01:08:52,240
Toma Halloran who did qualify for the spot was like super deserving as well, you know,
839
01:08:52,240 --> 01:09:00,760
like whether or not I'd stayed, he was absolutely, you know, had exceptional chances to take
840
01:09:00,760 --> 01:09:02,960
that spot like he did in the end.
841
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:08,640
But yeah, no, so that was like a super, super tough time.
842
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:12,680
The whole process going into it was really, really hard.
843
01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:16,680
A lot of like back and forth and people saying things online and all sorts of stuff and it
844
01:09:16,680 --> 01:09:17,760
was really, really tough.
845
01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:23,480
But yeah, and then but then afterwards, you know, I once the process of trying to qualify
846
01:09:23,480 --> 01:09:29,360
was over, I was able to like really grow from that and ended up having some like really,
847
01:09:29,360 --> 01:09:30,360
really great World Cup season.
848
01:09:30,360 --> 01:09:33,480
So, you know, there's positives to take from it, but it was like, yeah, it was a pretty
849
01:09:33,480 --> 01:09:37,480
full on experience over the course of like a year or so, I think.
850
01:09:37,480 --> 01:09:38,840
Geez, yeah.
851
01:09:38,840 --> 01:09:42,160
Well, gosh, I'm sorry to hear that.
852
01:09:42,160 --> 01:09:45,000
I hope she's doing better now.
853
01:09:45,000 --> 01:09:47,160
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
854
01:09:47,160 --> 01:09:52,360
She's doing she's doing she's still you know, the battle continues, but you know, she's
855
01:09:52,360 --> 01:09:53,360
doing well.
856
01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:54,360
Okay.
857
01:09:54,360 --> 01:09:56,760
Well, that's good to hear at least.
858
01:09:56,760 --> 01:09:58,760
We wish the best for her.
859
01:09:58,760 --> 01:10:06,720
Yeah, like I said, you know, yeah, also a very kind of depressing topic for the podcast.
860
01:10:06,720 --> 01:10:10,640
Yeah, we can we can move on to happier stuff as well if you want to.
861
01:10:10,640 --> 01:10:11,640
Okay.
862
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:12,640
Well, thank you for sharing.
863
01:10:12,640 --> 01:10:19,360
I think usually when people look back on these things, they're usually happy about making
864
01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:25,640
the decision to like stick with family, especially in hard times.
865
01:10:25,640 --> 01:10:27,400
And I mean, you have another chance now.
866
01:10:27,400 --> 01:10:28,800
So yeah, yeah.
867
01:10:28,800 --> 01:10:34,120
And so it was, you know, I think it was quite interesting coming into this Olympics because
868
01:10:34,120 --> 01:10:37,880
there was all this Olympic selection process is there was like definitely a little bit
869
01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:43,160
of trauma from the last time of that whole process happening.
870
01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:50,800
But like, I was able to like recognize that, you know, this is something that I really
871
01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:52,040
want.
872
01:10:52,040 --> 01:10:55,840
And I was really excited about this process rather than last time where it was so full
873
01:10:55,840 --> 01:10:58,400
of like dread and grief and indecision.
874
01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:03,100
Like this time it's been fulfilled with like so much passion and ambition.
875
01:11:03,100 --> 01:11:05,680
And I'm really excited about this opportunity.
876
01:11:05,680 --> 01:11:11,040
And you know, if I don't qualify in November, then I'm also really excited about the opportunity
877
01:11:11,040 --> 01:11:14,000
to get to do the Olympic qualifier series next year, hopefully.
878
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:20,000
And so it's just like as sad and depressing and whatever as that whole last experience
879
01:11:20,000 --> 01:11:23,680
was, you know, and everything that I was going through at that time.
880
01:11:23,680 --> 01:11:31,000
I'm like so much healthier and so much stronger and happier now that like, yeah, this this
881
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:37,360
process so far is has been really joyful, which is such a juxtaposition to the last
882
01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:38,360
one.
883
01:11:38,360 --> 01:11:39,760
So I'm like super grateful in that sense.
884
01:11:39,760 --> 01:11:41,920
Yeah, that's really great to hear.
885
01:11:41,920 --> 01:11:47,360
And how do you feel about competing this time without the speed discipline being added into
886
01:11:47,360 --> 01:11:48,360
everything?
887
01:11:48,360 --> 01:11:49,480
Oh, so good.
888
01:11:49,480 --> 01:11:50,480
So good.
889
01:11:50,480 --> 01:11:56,720
I think that was like also part of the last process was that I had a really hard time
890
01:11:56,720 --> 01:12:01,000
making up my mind as to whether or not I actually wanted to do the combined format.
891
01:12:01,000 --> 01:12:07,560
I just I really appreciate and respect speed climbing, but it's just not for me.
892
01:12:07,560 --> 01:12:12,720
And so yeah, that was also something I was grappling with through that whole process
893
01:12:12,720 --> 01:12:14,400
is like as hard as it was.
894
01:12:14,400 --> 01:12:17,960
I wasn't my heart wasn't completely in it.
895
01:12:17,960 --> 01:12:22,400
Whereas this time with the lead boulder combined, like that's the those are the disciplines
896
01:12:22,400 --> 01:12:23,520
that I fell in love with.
897
01:12:23,520 --> 01:12:28,000
And so, yeah, my heart really is in this one 100 percent.
898
01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:34,840
And I'm able to like enjoy the process of it as a result, not just like, you know, not
899
01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:39,480
just looking towards the outcome, but also enjoying the journey.
900
01:12:39,480 --> 01:12:45,440
It's a little bit of a shame as a viewer, just because it was actually pretty fun watching
901
01:12:45,440 --> 01:12:50,840
non speed climbers and seeing how well they could do on the speed route, since it's just
902
01:12:50,840 --> 01:12:57,240
so much more, I guess, like consistent and you can just like interesting to see.
903
01:12:57,240 --> 01:13:03,520
So but I understand, of course, like it's not people don't really want to do it if they're
904
01:13:03,520 --> 01:13:04,920
not into it.
905
01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:05,920
Yeah.
906
01:13:05,920 --> 01:13:09,120
And I'm glad that the speed climbers get their own medal this time, because I think that
907
01:13:09,120 --> 01:13:11,800
combined format like really shafted them.
908
01:13:11,800 --> 01:13:13,000
Oh, yeah.
909
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:17,000
So yeah, it's really nice that they get to have their own set of medals this time.
910
01:13:17,000 --> 01:13:19,600
And I think everyone's a little bit happier for it.
911
01:13:19,600 --> 01:13:24,520
I think we'll be even happier when the three disciplines are split.
912
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:26,480
This combined format is fun.
913
01:13:26,480 --> 01:13:27,480
I think it's really cool.
914
01:13:27,480 --> 01:13:30,760
I think it's fun to watch and like I'm enjoying it so far.
915
01:13:30,760 --> 01:13:31,760
Yeah.
916
01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:36,240
Do you have hopes for it getting split in like LA games?
917
01:13:36,240 --> 01:13:45,040
From what I understand, that's the plan is to get three medals for the LA games.
918
01:13:45,040 --> 01:13:47,600
And that would be quite cool.
919
01:13:47,600 --> 01:13:53,400
Like also, you know, having multiple opportunities to claim an Olympic spot as well, like you
920
01:13:53,400 --> 01:13:58,120
claim a spot in Boulder or lead rather than just the one for both.
921
01:13:58,120 --> 01:14:02,920
That's like quite cool as well, because it is a lot of pressure to, you know, just try
922
01:14:02,920 --> 01:14:07,600
and perform really well across both disciplines and to take one spot.
923
01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:08,600
Yeah.
924
01:14:08,600 --> 01:14:11,320
Do you think if it is split in the future, you'll try for both?
925
01:14:11,320 --> 01:14:12,600
Yeah, I think so.
926
01:14:12,600 --> 01:14:13,600
I think that's my plan.
927
01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:25,480
It's something I'll probably have to decide, you know, come the next selection cycle.
928
01:14:25,480 --> 01:14:29,200
But I think I would like to try and qualify for both.
929
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:34,040
But at the end of the day, I'm much more of a lead specialist than a Boulder specialist.
930
01:14:34,040 --> 01:14:38,800
And so if I feel like also doing bouldering is going to be detrimental to my chances in
931
01:14:38,800 --> 01:14:40,680
lead, that might impact my decision.
932
01:14:40,680 --> 01:14:45,080
I've always done both, so I would imagine that I would still try to do both.
933
01:14:45,080 --> 01:14:46,080
Okay.
934
01:14:46,080 --> 01:14:52,800
Yeah, I think it would be interesting to see how things change, because I would think a
935
01:14:52,800 --> 01:14:58,720
lot more people will probably try to just focus on one.
936
01:14:58,720 --> 01:15:04,200
And then it'll be interesting to see how that plays out, because I mean, a lot of people
937
01:15:04,200 --> 01:15:06,300
are great at both right now.
938
01:15:06,300 --> 01:15:11,720
And I wonder what it would look like if they just focused on one, all of their energy,
939
01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:12,720
onto one.
940
01:15:12,720 --> 01:15:14,720
If it'd be unstoppable.
941
01:15:14,720 --> 01:15:16,440
Yeah, I agree.
942
01:15:16,440 --> 01:15:20,840
Yeah, I'm also really curious to see what people do.
943
01:15:20,840 --> 01:15:25,880
I think there are probably a few more, generally speaking, there are more like Boulder specialists
944
01:15:25,880 --> 01:15:28,640
than there are lead specialists.
945
01:15:28,640 --> 01:15:37,040
So I wonder if the participations across the disciplines will shift as well.
946
01:15:37,040 --> 01:15:38,800
But yeah, I guess we'll see when it happens.
947
01:15:38,800 --> 01:15:43,680
You got to think about some strategy going into that.
948
01:15:43,680 --> 01:15:51,760
But I think that's quite in the future, another five years, so we have some time.
949
01:15:51,760 --> 01:15:58,280
Thinking about the upcoming one, how do you think your training would change if you qualified
950
01:15:58,280 --> 01:16:07,360
in the Oceania Championships versus if you had to wait again until OQS?
951
01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:12,880
I think either way, I'll be taking a little break right after that comp, which will be
952
01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:14,960
nice.
953
01:16:14,960 --> 01:16:19,280
And then the season will start again, either way, the season will start up again quite
954
01:16:19,280 --> 01:16:20,920
soon.
955
01:16:20,920 --> 01:16:29,080
I think if I'm competing in the OQS, the training will kick off sooner because the first OQS
956
01:16:29,080 --> 01:16:36,720
round is in April or May, I think.
957
01:16:36,720 --> 01:16:43,760
But I mean, either way, my mindset at the moment is just to go in 110%.
958
01:16:43,760 --> 01:16:50,320
I think my chances of qualifying in the Continental event are obviously exponentially higher than
959
01:16:50,320 --> 01:16:52,440
they are in the OQS, for instance.
960
01:16:52,440 --> 01:16:56,960
But the way I look at it now is just whatever happens, I'm going to be 110% committed to
961
01:16:56,960 --> 01:17:01,640
either competing in the Olympic Games or grabbing a ticket at the OQS.
962
01:17:01,640 --> 01:17:05,600
And I want to finish feeling like I didn't leave anything behind.
963
01:17:05,600 --> 01:17:10,760
So I don't think there'll be too many changes to my approach in that respect.
964
01:17:10,760 --> 01:17:11,760
While we're rooting for you.
965
01:17:11,760 --> 01:17:12,760
Yeah, thank you.
966
01:17:12,760 --> 01:17:15,800
What do you think, what's considered a break for you?
967
01:17:15,800 --> 01:17:22,920
Because I feel like a break for proper athletes is very different from what I consider a break.
968
01:17:22,920 --> 01:17:28,000
Well I have like a little trip to New Zealand planned where I think I will do little to
969
01:17:28,000 --> 01:17:30,880
no climbing.
970
01:17:30,880 --> 01:17:38,560
Usually a break will be like one to two weeks of no climbing at all.
971
01:17:38,560 --> 01:17:43,440
And then maybe one to two weeks of climbing when I want to.
972
01:17:43,440 --> 01:17:44,440
It's kind of what I do.
973
01:17:44,440 --> 01:17:48,520
So I wouldn't say I'm taking a break, I just climb as much as I feel like climbing.
974
01:17:48,520 --> 01:17:56,120
I think if I wasn't an athlete, I probably wouldn't climb quite as much as I do.
975
01:17:56,120 --> 01:18:00,320
I wouldn't be doing double sessions, five days a week, blah, blah, blah.
976
01:18:00,320 --> 01:18:04,440
I'd probably just be climbing three to four days a week for a couple of hours and trying
977
01:18:04,440 --> 01:18:06,720
the boulders that I think are fun and that sort of thing.
978
01:18:06,720 --> 01:18:10,400
So yeah, a break is just embracing that side of myself.
979
01:18:10,400 --> 01:18:14,280
And sometimes I get to the end of a season, I have three days off and I'm like, no, I
980
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:15,280
want to go climbing.
981
01:18:15,280 --> 01:18:20,640
And then I think last year I got to the end of my season and I took two weeks off with
982
01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:23,640
no climbing and I had to like force myself to go back.
983
01:18:23,640 --> 01:18:26,040
Okay, it's time to start training again.
984
01:18:26,040 --> 01:18:27,040
So it depends.
985
01:18:27,040 --> 01:18:30,720
But I just go with the flow and do what feels right.
986
01:18:30,720 --> 01:18:32,520
Yeah that sounds reasonable.
987
01:18:32,520 --> 01:18:37,920
Okay, well I'm excited to watch you climb.
988
01:18:37,920 --> 01:18:40,720
Hopefully it'll be streamed and easy to watch.
989
01:18:40,720 --> 01:18:43,920
Yeah, there should be a live stream on YouTube.
990
01:18:43,920 --> 01:18:46,680
I think it'll be open access for everybody.
991
01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:47,680
Awesome.
992
01:18:47,680 --> 01:18:50,640
Okay, yeah, excited to watch.
993
01:18:50,640 --> 01:18:56,120
And now going into the last section, a few discord questions.
994
01:18:56,120 --> 01:19:01,400
I already went through a few while we were just talking, but we have I think three others
995
01:19:01,400 --> 01:19:04,800
that either just like didn't really fit.
996
01:19:04,800 --> 01:19:10,800
So the first one, this one I just I actually have no idea about.
997
01:19:10,800 --> 01:19:15,400
It relates to climbing in Australia, I think outside as well.
998
01:19:15,400 --> 01:19:18,840
I don't know how much outside climbing you do.
999
01:19:18,840 --> 01:19:21,440
I don't tend to climb outside a lot these days.
1000
01:19:21,440 --> 01:19:27,720
When I was in my teens, I did a lot of rock climbing, but nowadays not so much.
1001
01:19:27,720 --> 01:19:28,720
Okay.
1002
01:19:28,720 --> 01:19:32,320
Well, you probably still have a bit of insight into it.
1003
01:19:32,320 --> 01:19:36,920
Do you feel like climbers are used as an easy target by state governments in regards to
1004
01:19:36,920 --> 01:19:44,280
Aboriginal heritage because there is societal outgroup and it deflects away from other more
1005
01:19:44,280 --> 01:19:49,520
severe sources of harm to Aboriginal communities such as the mining industry?
1006
01:19:49,520 --> 01:19:54,840
Oh, I'd say yes and no.
1007
01:19:54,840 --> 01:19:55,840
Yes and no.
1008
01:19:55,840 --> 01:20:02,640
I think, yeah, I think there are definitely people within certain organizations that do
1009
01:20:02,640 --> 01:20:14,120
use climbing as a scapegoat to either reduce access to certain areas.
1010
01:20:14,120 --> 01:20:21,360
But I think at the same time, climbing and climbers need to acknowledge the role that
1011
01:20:21,360 --> 01:20:27,120
we play in the protection of First Nations heritage within Australia and within other
1012
01:20:27,120 --> 01:20:29,640
countries as well.
1013
01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:33,120
And that is going to mean not climbing in certain areas.
1014
01:20:33,120 --> 01:20:39,400
I think anyone who's been to the Grampians, who's climbed in crags like kindergarten or
1015
01:20:39,400 --> 01:20:44,520
Muleine or the gallery, you look at these caves and it's impossible to think that over
1016
01:20:44,520 --> 01:20:51,240
the course of 90,000 years of history that people haven't lived and died in these caves
1017
01:20:51,240 --> 01:20:55,640
and that they aren't sacred spaces.
1018
01:20:55,640 --> 01:21:01,560
And I think to some degree, bolting them and covering them with chalk and doing whatever
1019
01:21:01,560 --> 01:21:08,680
we do is to some degree desecrating these places that were taken by First Nations people
1020
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:10,600
through horrific genocides.
1021
01:21:10,600 --> 01:21:15,360
So yeah, I think it's important that as climbers we acknowledge the role we have to play and
1022
01:21:15,360 --> 01:21:18,400
sometimes it's going to mean not climbing in certain areas.
1023
01:21:18,400 --> 01:21:30,000
I think on the other hand though, there are instances where state bodies maybe could,
1024
01:21:30,000 --> 01:21:34,000
maybe we could be putting in a little bit more work to ensure that we are keeping climbers
1025
01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:40,400
out of the right areas and then still providing everybody access to areas that are safe for
1026
01:21:40,400 --> 01:21:45,720
us to recreate in without damaging cultural heritage, if that makes sense.
1027
01:21:45,720 --> 01:21:50,840
Yeah, and I guess for context, what are some of the restrictions that have been put in
1028
01:21:50,840 --> 01:21:53,960
place?
1029
01:21:53,960 --> 01:22:02,440
A lot of the Grampians has just become a subject to straight up no climbing bands or certain
1030
01:22:02,440 --> 01:22:08,560
areas you can only climb in if you have a guide with you.
1031
01:22:08,560 --> 01:22:18,040
I definitely wouldn't say I'm a foremost expert on this topic, but yeah, I think different
1032
01:22:18,040 --> 01:22:23,160
people within different organisations have varying ideas of what climbers should and
1033
01:22:23,160 --> 01:22:24,680
shouldn't have access to.
1034
01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:27,520
I think some of which is very, very valid.
1035
01:22:27,520 --> 01:22:35,000
Some of these climbing spaces are quite close to protective cave paintings and sacred sites.
1036
01:22:35,000 --> 01:22:39,360
And yet, like I said, it makes sense that we aren't able to climb in those spaces because
1037
01:22:39,360 --> 01:22:45,760
a white European settlement only came to Australia within the last two centuries.
1038
01:22:45,760 --> 01:22:55,440
So we have to be respectful of the land that we find ourselves upon.
1039
01:22:55,440 --> 01:23:00,920
But yeah, at the same time, I think there's also, yeah, there's room to make these assessments
1040
01:23:00,920 --> 01:23:06,960
of these places and ensure climbers that where it is safe for us to climb, that we will have
1041
01:23:06,960 --> 01:23:08,920
access to those spaces.
1042
01:23:08,920 --> 01:23:11,200
Okay, makes sense.
1043
01:23:11,200 --> 01:23:14,000
Yeah, next question.
1044
01:23:14,000 --> 01:23:17,240
What are your thoughts on U-Bank grading?
1045
01:23:17,240 --> 01:23:21,600
I think it's far easier to understand than most other grading systems.
1046
01:23:21,600 --> 01:23:30,220
And being open-ended is a bonus that avoids the muddled lower end of our UK trad grades.
1047
01:23:30,220 --> 01:23:34,600
So if you could also go into what the grading system is like, because I'm not very familiar
1048
01:23:34,600 --> 01:23:35,600
with that.
1049
01:23:35,600 --> 01:23:36,600
Yeah.
1050
01:23:36,600 --> 01:23:41,360
Well, I mean, you kind of hit the nail on the head a little bit in that the U-Bank grade
1051
01:23:41,360 --> 01:23:43,840
is just super easy.
1052
01:23:43,840 --> 01:23:48,080
It's just a number system.
1053
01:23:48,080 --> 01:23:55,760
So for instance, I think a 8A European sports grade is a 29 in Australia.
1054
01:23:55,760 --> 01:24:03,280
8A plus is 30, 8B is 31, so on and so forth, 32, 33, 34.
1055
01:24:03,280 --> 01:24:08,040
Although I feel like because I spend so much time climbing overseas, I tend to default
1056
01:24:08,040 --> 01:24:11,200
into the European grading anyway.
1057
01:24:11,200 --> 01:24:22,400
Yeah, I think, I mean, at the end of the day, grading is all subjective and it kind of ends
1058
01:24:22,400 --> 01:24:28,080
up equating more or less to the same thing anyway.
1059
01:24:28,080 --> 01:24:32,880
I think it is kind of nice that U-Bank doesn't have these cluster grades in the same way
1060
01:24:32,880 --> 01:24:36,880
that the United States have got 513, 514.
1061
01:24:36,880 --> 01:24:43,640
You have these brackets, the U-Bank system just kind of progresses point by point.
1062
01:24:43,640 --> 01:24:45,680
But grades are grades.
1063
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:47,920
It's all much for muchness in the end.
1064
01:24:47,920 --> 01:24:48,920
Yeah.
1065
01:24:48,920 --> 01:24:49,920
Yeah.
1066
01:24:49,920 --> 01:24:54,880
Next question, something we actually didn't touch on too much, but this is your chance
1067
01:24:54,880 --> 01:24:59,760
to go into it if you want.
1068
01:24:59,760 --> 01:25:02,960
I'm interested in your views on pro climbing and queerness.
1069
01:25:02,960 --> 01:25:07,720
Is it an easy community to be openly LGBTQ plus in?
1070
01:25:07,720 --> 01:25:13,600
And how does it feel competing in countries where it's frowned upon or illegal?
1071
01:25:13,600 --> 01:25:17,840
I believe one of the OQS is in the Middle East, for example.
1072
01:25:17,840 --> 01:25:23,520
I think that for the most part, I found the climbing community quite accepting of me as
1073
01:25:23,520 --> 01:25:25,000
a queer person.
1074
01:25:25,000 --> 01:25:29,520
That's not to say that there isn't homophobia and discrimination within the community.
1075
01:25:29,520 --> 01:25:37,720
I think that's more accentuated at the international level because like you said, you have this
1076
01:25:37,720 --> 01:25:42,360
mixing part of all these different cultures.
1077
01:25:42,360 --> 01:25:49,040
Some people are going to feel less strongly about your human rights, love for you, love
1078
01:25:49,040 --> 01:25:50,360
for you, that sort of thing.
1079
01:25:50,360 --> 01:25:52,040
It can be quite scary.
1080
01:25:52,040 --> 01:25:56,400
I was competing in the world championships in Russia a few years back.
1081
01:25:56,400 --> 01:26:03,480
Yeah, it can be quite scary that I'm someone who paints my nails and maybe someone on the
1082
01:26:03,480 --> 01:26:10,520
street might see that as a sign that I'm a queer person and have an issue with it or
1083
01:26:10,520 --> 01:26:16,040
that people will see me and my partner at a competition and have an issue with that.
1084
01:26:16,040 --> 01:26:24,840
So there are definitely certain aspects to it that we as queer people have to take into
1085
01:26:24,840 --> 01:26:28,680
consideration a little more than others do.
1086
01:26:28,680 --> 01:26:34,480
But yeah, for the most part, I think my experiences as a queer climber have been quite positive.
1087
01:26:34,480 --> 01:26:42,320
I think most of the controversy comes when I try to discuss my queerness and my athleticism
1088
01:26:42,320 --> 01:26:46,680
or my climbing in the same vein.
1089
01:26:46,680 --> 01:26:51,200
I can sometimes get a lot of negative feedback and that people saying that being gay doesn't
1090
01:26:51,200 --> 01:26:52,840
have anything to do with climbing.
1091
01:26:52,840 --> 01:26:58,560
But at the end of the day, they're two important facets of who I am.
1092
01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:02,360
So they don't, none of it exists in a vacuum.
1093
01:27:02,360 --> 01:27:07,840
So yeah, it's an interesting interplay, I guess.
1094
01:27:07,840 --> 01:27:13,760
Has it ever affected you to the point where you have to sort of consider if a competition
1095
01:27:13,760 --> 01:27:16,240
is one that you would want to go to?
1096
01:27:16,240 --> 01:27:30,160
Yeah, I definitely had an internal battle, I guess, with regard to whether or not I would
1097
01:27:30,160 --> 01:27:34,920
go and compete in Russia.
1098
01:27:34,920 --> 01:27:42,880
I'm an ambassador for an organization in Australia called Proud to Play.
1099
01:27:42,880 --> 01:27:46,120
And one of the things that I have of theirs is I have this, it's just like a towel, like
1100
01:27:46,120 --> 01:27:49,680
every athlete comes out to a bouldering round almost with a towel, they can clean their
1101
01:27:49,680 --> 01:27:50,740
shoes and stuff.
1102
01:27:50,740 --> 01:27:52,720
My towel has a pride flag on it.
1103
01:27:52,720 --> 01:27:57,680
And there are some countries where I'm like, oh, I don't know if I should come out onto
1104
01:27:57,680 --> 01:28:00,000
the field wearing this pride flag.
1105
01:28:00,000 --> 01:28:04,320
But then at the same time, maybe it's even more important that I come out onto the field
1106
01:28:04,320 --> 01:28:10,220
wearing a pride flag in some of these countries.
1107
01:28:10,220 --> 01:28:15,960
So yeah, it's something that I have to think about.
1108
01:28:15,960 --> 01:28:21,840
And I think the OQS round in the Middle East got canceled in the end.
1109
01:28:21,840 --> 01:28:27,080
I think now it's just Shanghai and Budapest.
1110
01:28:27,080 --> 01:28:34,160
But yeah, it is something that I have to think about when it comes to making a decision about
1111
01:28:34,160 --> 01:28:37,200
which comps to attend to and which not.
1112
01:28:37,200 --> 01:28:41,720
And did they replace it with a different location or it's just gone?
1113
01:28:41,720 --> 01:28:45,720
Unfortunately, we're just going to have two rounds of the OQS now, which is good because
1114
01:28:45,720 --> 01:28:49,520
for a little while, I think the fear was that there was going to be one round.
1115
01:28:49,520 --> 01:28:50,960
Yeah.
1116
01:28:50,960 --> 01:28:56,440
So yeah, it should be, as far as the dates that have been confirmed at this stage, yeah,
1117
01:28:56,440 --> 01:28:59,280
it'll be the two rounds of the OQS.
1118
01:28:59,280 --> 01:29:03,960
So a little bit shorter than the planned three, but should still be good.
1119
01:29:03,960 --> 01:29:04,960
Okay.
1120
01:29:04,960 --> 01:29:06,240
All right.
1121
01:29:06,240 --> 01:29:10,400
I think that's all of the questions I had.
1122
01:29:10,400 --> 01:29:13,280
Is there anything else that you wanted to touch on?
1123
01:29:13,280 --> 01:29:15,400
Yeah, it's been fun.
1124
01:29:15,400 --> 01:29:16,400
Happy to be here.
1125
01:29:16,400 --> 01:29:17,600
Thanks for having me on board.
1126
01:29:17,600 --> 01:29:21,160
And I'm glad we managed to get together and have this chat.
1127
01:29:21,160 --> 01:29:25,280
And I'm looking forward to seeing the full piece.
1128
01:29:25,280 --> 01:29:27,600
Yeah, thank you for joining me.
1129
01:29:27,600 --> 01:29:31,200
Is there anything you want to like shout out or let people know where they can find you?
1130
01:29:31,200 --> 01:29:32,200
Yeah.
1131
01:29:32,200 --> 01:29:36,440
I mean, if anyone wants to follow me, you can find me on Instagram at Campbell underscore
1132
01:29:36,440 --> 01:29:38,840
Harrison five four seven.
1133
01:29:38,840 --> 01:29:43,200
That's probably the best way to keep track with keep up with what I'm doing.
1134
01:29:43,200 --> 01:29:44,840
Yeah.
1135
01:29:44,840 --> 01:29:48,960
Otherwise no, I think that's like, yeah, that's everything.
1136
01:29:48,960 --> 01:29:52,560
Unless you have any more questions, I'm happy with that.
1137
01:29:52,560 --> 01:29:53,560
Awesome.
1138
01:29:53,560 --> 01:29:54,560
Okay.
1139
01:29:54,560 --> 01:29:56,080
That was amazing to talk to you.
1140
01:29:56,080 --> 01:29:57,080
Yeah.
1141
01:29:57,080 --> 01:29:58,080
Thank you so much.
1142
01:29:58,080 --> 01:30:00,880
Thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast.
1143
01:30:00,880 --> 01:30:04,960
If you're watching on YouTube, I would love to hear your discussion and thoughts in the
1144
01:30:04,960 --> 01:30:06,720
comments below.
1145
01:30:06,720 --> 01:30:09,840
And don't forget to like and subscribe if you enjoyed.
1146
01:30:09,840 --> 01:30:14,960
If you're listening through a podcasting platform, I'd appreciate if you rate it five stars and
1147
01:30:14,960 --> 01:30:20,800
you can continue the discussion through my competition climbing discord linked in all
1148
01:30:20,800 --> 01:30:23,840
the descriptions through all the platforms.
1149
01:30:23,840 --> 01:30:29,840
Thanks again for listening.
