12: Anita Aggarwal + Christiane Luttikhuizen, RP3 Paraclimbers

Anita Aggarwal and Christiane Luttikhuizen are paraclimbers who have competed in world cups as part of the RP3 sports class. RP3 is a classification for limited reach, power or stability. In this episode, we’ll learn about what it’s like climbing with a disability, the difficulties dealing with classification and class merging, whether or not the IFSC does a good job with accommodations, and the possibility of joining the Paralympics in LA 2028.


Show Notes

Guest links:

Anita’s Instagram

Christiane’s Instagram

Reference links:


Timestamps

Timestamps of discussion topics

0:00 - Introduction

1:15 - Holiday debrief

4:36 - How they got into climbing

6:01 - Explanation of paraclimbing categories

8:39 - Christiane's disability

10:07 - Anita's disability

12:05 - Classification + merging

24:31 - Getting de-classified and re-classified

30:17 - Managing fatigue + injury with competitions

39:38 - How to join a paraclimbing team

44:56 - History of paraclimbing

47:54 - Paraclimbing formats, potentially lead or bouldering?

50:33 - Paraclimbing route setting

57:49 - Logistical issues and isolation insanity

1:00:57 - Has the IFSC been good at accommodating paraclimbers?

1:08:37 - Funding for paraclimbers

1:16:23 - Not feeling disabled enough

1:20:05 - How it feels to climb a para route

1:25:18 - Matt Groom fan club

1:28:41 - Anita on being an older competitor (50+)

1:34:49 - Paralympics in LA 2028?

1:41:26 - Discord Q: Are there any paraclimbers who do speed climbing?

1:43:34 - Discord Q: Should there be more paraclimbing world cups?

1:45:32 - Discord Q: What are the future areas of growth for paraclimbing?

1:49:23 - Discord Q: How does the path of a pro paraclimber differ from that of an able-bodied climber?

1:55:03 - Where to find Anita + Christiane

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    prosthetics lying around everywhere, guide dogs everywhere for the blind people.

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    It was like absolute chaos.

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    I've been climbing with an open wound across my belly button for the whole of this season.

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    Like, OK, if you're missing an arm, you feel like you can't represent the community,

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    then I'll do the podcast.

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    That's the only opportunity we get to climb a route that's been set for us,

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    which is one of the reasons I do it.

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    Welcome to another episode of the That's Not Real Climbing podcast.

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    I'm your host, Jinni, and I'm excited to introduce my guests, multiple for today,

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    Anita Aggarwal and Christiane Luttikhuizen.

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    Both Anita and Chris are para climbers who have competed in World Cups

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    as part of the RP3 sports class.

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    For those who aren't familiar, RP3 is a classification for limited reach, power or stability.

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    In this episode, we'll learn about what it's like climbing with a disability,

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    the difficulties dealing with classification and class merging,

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    whether or not the IFSC does a good job with accommodations

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    and the possibility of joining the Paralympics in LA at 2028.

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    Hope you enjoy this episode with Anita and Chris.

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    All right. So then I guess we can just get started.

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    How's everyone doing today?

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    Yeah, we've been looking forward to having a chat, something different at Christmas.

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    Yeah, this will come out in like a month-ish, but you were just out in Font, was it?

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    No, I was in Turkey. A couple of friends of mine went there.

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    It's a beautiful climbing area. I'd never been there before.

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    Climbed for three weeks and still sort of recovering.

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    But it was amazing.

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    I climbed so much. The last day I tried to climb the flight of Stair there, I was exhausted.

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    Yeah, it was a really good trip.

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    It was starting a new job in January and I had to climb up.

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    So it's a nice vacation for us.

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    Yeah, I didn't know there was climbing in Turkey. That's interesting.

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    Very 3D, two-class style. It's really cool.

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    And yeah, Anita, how are your holidays?

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    It's been all right, actually.

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    As an older 50-year-old who doesn't have any kids

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    and has one family member, my dad lives an hour away

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    in a small, light, old people's caravan on a field somewhere.

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    And then my mum lives in a one-bedroom flat another hour away in another direction.

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    It's not a viable sort of thing anymore.

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    So I rang my dad and I says on Christmas Day, I only just worked out it was Christmas yesterday.

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    So that's how not with it I've been.

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    I've been too busy climbing and socializing and completely forgot everything.

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    So my parents just don't celebrate it anymore.

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    So I'd quite happily have joined Christiana in her climbing.

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    Yeah, it seems to be the thing to do in the climbing world, go climbing, which is great.

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    I think sort of similar.

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    I think a lot of climbers end up just climbing on Christmas Day or over the holidays in general.

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    Yeah, I really like to do short bouldering session before I have to sit at the dinner table for six hours with my family.

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    So that helps quite a bit.

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    How about you?

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    I had a yeah, I had a well, no, I wouldn't say relaxing.

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    I would say exhausting.

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    I'm exhausted.

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    I need a break from my break, which happens a lot.

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    But, you know, life just keeps coming.

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    So there's really no break.

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    Getting back.

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    I'm looking forward to getting back into a routine and getting back into doing this podcast.

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    Had a little bit of a break, ready to start again.

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    So looking forward to that.

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    I did a little bit of climbing, but not too much.

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    What kind of climber are you?

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    I'm mostly boulder.

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    Just because I'm like, I like aging.

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    I'm starting to age.

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    So I need to like focus all of my effort on one thing, I think.

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    And so I'm focusing on competition bouldering, and that's all I'm focusing on.

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    But I actually did climb outside a little bit since I'm in Vegas right now.

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    But yeah, just a little bit of outdoor climbing.

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    I did ropes for the first time in like three years.

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    So it was OK.

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    So, yeah, just getting into the climbing bit.

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    How did you guys start climbing and get into it and what drew you to it?

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    Basically, in 2009, a local church got converted to a climbing wall.

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    Thought I'd go see what it was.

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    I was 35 at the time.

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    So quite late on in life, spent 19 years working and getting to that point where sport was just normal everyday stuff.

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    So I went and had a look and it was very, very new then.

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    There weren't very many climbing centers and stuff.

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    So I gave it a go.

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    And then life changed in 2009.

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    But generally just going to see what this climbing was like inside a church inside Derby, which is a hometown in the UK.

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    Nice.

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    I started climbing at least seven years ago when a bouldering gym opened in my hometown and a friend just dragged me there and I really liked it.

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    I used to play volleyball as well at the same time.

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    But then it ends every time we had to go to volleyball practice.

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    I just wanted to climb.

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    So I quit volleyball, started climbing more and more.

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    And then I found out that I was eligible for fair climbing in 2021 and I've been competing in RPC since then.

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    Yeah, in general, I just really like talking about fair climbing.

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    I really like the community.

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    It's great people. So yeah, excited for today.

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    And so, yeah, you're both in the RP3 category, which is for limited reach, power, stability.

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    So could you just explain that category a bit for the people who aren't super familiar?

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    And if you also don't mind sharing, what is your disability?

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    Sure.

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    If you want, I can give you a brief overview of all the categories and sort of how it goes with classification.

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    And very broadly speaking, there are three categories.

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    B for blind, A for amputees, and RP for limited range of power and mobility.

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    And then every category is subdivided into how severe the environment is.

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    So there's B1, B2, and B3.

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    In B1, people are fully blind, and in B3, people have a little bit of eyesight left.

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    For the amputation categories, there's AU for amputee at the upper limb, and AL for amputee at the lower limb.

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    And again, one is more severely impaired and the two or three are less impaired.

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    AL1 is people that cannot use their legs at all.

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    So usually it's people that do have their legs but they're paralyzed.

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    They can't do everything, and it's really, really cool to watch.

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    There's this Austrian guy in the campus, and he's plus, I think.

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    The level is super high. It's really, really awesome.

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    And then AL2 is for people that don't have use of one leg.

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    So often it's an amputation either above the knee or below the knee is one category.

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    People can choose to wear a prosthetic, but they don't have to.

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    And then for the AU, amputee at the upper limb,

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    we used to have AU1, so people that couldn't use one arm at all.

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    But last year a new category got added, so one had to go.

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    Which means that now we have AU2 for people that miss their arm, but they do have an elbow.

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    And AU3 for people that do have a wrist, but they miss some fingers.

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    So that's the amputation categories.

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    And for every category, you could say, oh, the level is so high and it's so amazing to watch.

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    Yeah, I don't know. There's men with one leg all-siding 8a.

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    There's women with one arm climbing 7b.

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    I don't know. I'm just always so impressed by it.

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    Anyways, that was Anita and me. We're in RP3.

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    RP is a very diverse group of impairments and disabilities.

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    Again, RP1 is the most impaired and RP2 and 3 are less than barely impaired.

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    I have cerebral palsy, which means I was born with some mild brain damage.

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    It affects the strength and coordination on the whole left side of my body.

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    So my strength is about 25% less than on the right side,

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    which means that on the right side it's an easy lock off. On the left, I just crash.

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    I have spasm in my foot, so it's quite hard to coordinate it onto a hold.

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    My ankle and hip mobility is a bit limited and my left foot is quite weak,

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    so I can't push off from one toe or from my toes,

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    which means it's really hard to put pressure on holds.

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    And because my ankle ability is limited, I can't bring my heel down.

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    Standing on volumes or small feet is quite tricky for me.

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    Because RP is such a broad category, I have cerebral palsy,

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    and it is not affecting me that much.

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    If it was more severe, I could be in RP2 or RP1.

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    We see people with neuromuscular diseases,

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    MS, cerebral palsy, spasticity, genetic,

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    anything that influences you neurologically or ideologically.

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    People that have car accidents, joint replacements, that really impair mobility.

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    So it can be a lot of things.

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    And it makes it really fun to compete in RP because there are so many different bodies and different people.

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    You were just making me think.

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    So to the audience, I'm going to speak about before and after how the competitions worked for climbing.

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    So when I actually first got classified back in 2017, I was actually clashed into RP2,

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    which was middle of disability.

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    And I was clashed at 7.30 in the morning when I struggled to walk and even process completely,

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    because multiple sclerosis means multiple scars.

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    So I've got three scars in my head and two in my spine.

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    And that's kind of severed the communication and the response time of how my limbs operate and move.

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    And then basically, I believe in 2019, when the able-bodied joined the Olympics,

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    what it actually did is it tripped out classification for us.

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    We were triggered into being checked to see what our disabilities were like.

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    So I started off in RP2.

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    What happens is when we don't have enough people in the class, we get merged.

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    And at the time, I'm just looking at a map at the moment.

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    If I was in RP2 and there wasn't enough upper amputees, I would be merged with them

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    because they merge into my category, which back in 2017 happened a lot.

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    My common competitor was Maureen Beck, which was brilliant for me, but there were so many...

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    there weren't very many armless and legless female at the time.

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    And then in 2021, when I went to the Moscow World Championships,

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    was the first time I got classified in the new classification system.

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    And because it became more in line with the Olympic classification,

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    which meant that your impairment had to be more severe,

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    not only myself, but the rest of the RPs in the GB team all got moved into RP3

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    where Christina is... or Chris is, sorry, because I might get your name wrong.

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    So that means that now I will never compete against the AU amputees if categories emerged.

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    I now compete with the legless.

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    So when you're looking at the RP category, RP3 is the weakest of your discipline.

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    But if there wasn't enough legless female in their sports class, they get merged with RP3.

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    Like, how did they decide that it would get merged with, I guess, amputees?

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    Because that seems like quite different.

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    Yeah, well, I'm just looking at the map. At the moment, you need...

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    Say you need four people to run the category.

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    And you've got B1 and only three people turn up. So B1 goes into B2.

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    And there's one person in B2 that makes four, they run on their own.

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    And I also look at the level.

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    So in general, the women with one arm climb more or less the same level as RP2 women.

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    And the women with one leg climb more or less the same level as RP3 women.

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    So that's why I think that's sort of how they decide on merging.

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    And I mean, merging is never fair, but it's better than no composition.

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    So that's why it's fair.

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    Well, this is it. This is it.

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    Back in 2017 when there was very few female climbers in legless and armless,

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    and there was only Pavitra who was the campus.

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    In RP2, I was getting merged with Ava, who is one of Chris's teammates,

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    which made it a lot more difficult for Ava to win over people who had moving legs because we were stronger.

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    Now I've been moved into RP3.

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    I agree with Chris that we're all of a similar impairment,

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    but it gives people who are in wheelchairs the ability to compete against people who should be competing against.

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    They've made the sport has become better because there's so many more athletes in it.

    194

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    And hopefully that will grow.

    195

    00:14:06,520 --> 00:14:15,520

    So if you don't have enough of a category, then they actually kind of end up in the category that mean Chris are in,

    196

    00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:20,520

    which is we get to compete against lots of different disabilities.

    197

    00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:23,520

    It could be legless. It could be fingerless.

    198

    00:14:23,520 --> 00:14:30,520

    But you will never get any of the B category compete with any other discipline other than B.

    199

    00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,520

    So it's quite interesting how our class works.

    200

    00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:38,520

    And it's quite fun to not know who you're going to compete against until the final comes up.

    201

    00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,520

    And then you realize that you're competing against.

    202

    00:14:41,520 --> 00:14:45,520

    And I think it's the same because both of our impairments are invisible.

    203

    00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,520

    My weakness is down my left hand side.

    204

    00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:50,520

    I can't really feel my left hand and my left foot.

    205

    00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:56,520

    And I can't do what are known as pistol squats or I can't rock over my knee over my left foot.

    206

    00:14:56,520 --> 00:15:00,520

    And if there's no foot hold on the wall, I can't physically push.

    207

    00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:05,520

    I'm absolutely screwed if the if the root goes to the right and there's no left foot hold.

    208

    00:15:05,520 --> 00:15:08,520

    I can't climb that that particular section.

    209

    00:15:08,520 --> 00:15:15,520

    It needs more education, but it is brilliant because we don't know we could end up with legless or or handless people in our category.

    210

    00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,520

    And what's the reason why the B category would never be combined?

    211

    00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:22,520

    Is it just they climb at a different level?

    212

    00:15:22,520 --> 00:15:24,520

    No, the bees get combined with the bees themselves.

    213

    00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:28,520

    So B1 goes into B2 and B2 goes into B3.

    214

    00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:38,520

    But only the physically impaired, the legless and the armless get merged into our P, which is why we need more female armless and legless.

    215

    00:15:38,520 --> 00:15:40,520

    On the female side, there's less on the men's side.

    216

    00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:44,520

    There's loads like AU3 was fingerless.

    217

    00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:49,520

    This is called a digit and you need seven digits to now make the new category.

    218

    00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,520

    So there's loads of there's loads of people out there that got fingers missing.

    219

    00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:57,520

    But if across two hands, if they've got seven digits missing, so that makes six.

    220

    00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:03,520

    Those two on the top of the thumbs gone, it now makes you a disabled climber and you can come and get involved in power climbing.

    221

    00:16:03,520 --> 00:16:05,520

    Very specific. Yeah.

    222

    00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:09,520

    Maybe that's a good segue into classification.

    223

    00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,520

    I think for a lot of people, it's really new how that works a lot.

    224

    00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:18,520

    And I think the last time I checked the classification document was a hundred fifty three pages.

    225

    00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:23,520

    I think there is no way to summarize it.

    226

    00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:25,520

    But I can give my own classification as an example.

    227

    00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:29,520

    But first, I'd like to what Anita said, you need to miss seven digits.

    228

    00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:32,520

    You'd say, well, OK, that's easy. You just count the digits and then you're done.

    229

    00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:41,520

    But actually for a lot of people with congenital limb deficiencies, it's not that you're born missing seven digits.

    230

    00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:43,520

    You're like the entire bone structure of your hand is different.

    231

    00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,520

    So it sounds really simple.

    232

    00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,520

    It's a couple of fingers and you're in AU3.

    233

    00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:54,520

    But even there, it can be so tricky that people don't even know exactly what digits they have and don't have.

    234

    00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:59,520

    So the classifiers, it's really a challenge for them.

    235

    00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:08,520

    And like Anita said, the classification system changed a couple of years ago when Paraclimbing could potentially make a bid for the Olympics.

    236

    00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:13,520

    So they had to really redevelop the classification system.

    237

    00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:20,520

    I've never been classified under the old system.

    238

    00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:29,520

    So my first classification was in 2021 and how the process goes, there are ISSD classifiers, there are traditions or doctors.

    239

    00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:35,520

    There are some forms of medical background and they are trained by the ISSD.

    240

    00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:39,520

    And so what they do is apply the classification rules.

    241

    00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:47,520

    In my case, I have less mobility and strength and coordination and it's bothering my foot.

    242

    00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:51,520

    But they only look at one of those to score you the points, basically.

    243

    00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:59,520

    So what they do, they put you on the bench for bench testing and then you just measure the angle of your joints, for example, to look at mobility.

    244

    00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:05,520

    And then they have this point system that says, all right, if your joint doesn't move at all, you get six points.

    245

    00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,520

    If your hip joint has this many degrees of range of motion, you get, I don't know, four points.

    246

    00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:11,520

    If it's this range of motion, you get three points.

    247

    00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:19,520

    And then at the end, they just add everything up, you get a score and then you need six points for RP3 and 18 points for RP2.

    248

    00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:24,520

    So that's how they can put you in the category.

    249

    00:18:24,520 --> 00:18:27,520

    Yeah, that's my experience in classification.

    250

    00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:30,520

    And I think the new system is quite a bit more strict.

    251

    00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:35,520

    They implemented it first in 2021 and that was really sort of a test year.

    252

    00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:49,520

    They're like, OK, we think that this is a good system, but you know, you write everything down and it's so hard to say, like, how many, how do you even compare the mobility that you have in joint to people with spasticity?

    253

    00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,520

    And I don't know, it's so hard to make a good system.

    254

    00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:56,520

    So they tested the system and now every year they're up there.

    255

    00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:00,520

    So every year they see something on the wall or say, OK, we put this person in RP3.

    256

    00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:11,520

    But actually, we think that this mobility loss that they have in their ankle joints should give them more or less points because it really, they're climbing more or less than we thought.

    257

    00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:19,520

    So the classifiers watch all the competitions and then they use that input to update and improve the classification system.

    258

    00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:26,520

    So can you get reclassified in the middle of like a season when you're climbing?

    259

    00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:28,520

    Absolutely, absolutely.

    260

    00:19:28,520 --> 00:19:32,520

    Yeah, I don't think it's what anyone wants, but it does happen.

    261

    00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,520

    So first they do the bench testing.

    262

    00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:40,520

    So one classification moments, it's always before the competition, usually two or three days before.

    263

    00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:54,520

    So they do all the bench testing and then they will also watch you in your qualifying rooms just to make sure that what they've seen in the bench tests is the same as what they see in the wall.

    264

    00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,520

    And then they will probably also watch your finals.

    265

    00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:08,520

    And then if there's another competition and they really feel like this is not what we saw in previous competitions or it just looks so different, then they might reclassify you.

    266

    00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:19,520

    But in general, after a classification, you get either you're concerned, so I mean, some people still clear, your legs and say that you're concerned, well, too.

    267

    00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:27,520

    But for most of the RP, because at least you get a review date might be next year or it might be a couple of years from now.

    268

    00:20:27,520 --> 00:20:33,520

    But yeah, like Anika said, you can be classified within the season, but it's not common.

    269

    00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:37,520

    It's definitely an issue at the moment.

    270

    00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:44,520

    So the way it worked for me is I turned up at the first World Championships in 2021 in Moscow.

    271

    00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,520

    It's the first year that the GB were allowed outside the country after Covid.

    272

    00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:55,520

    So we all went out to the World Championships having not competed all year in any World Cup.

    273

    00:20:55,520 --> 00:21:00,520

    And my classification went, it's the very first time they're going to classify me.

    274

    00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:06,520

    And I didn't know what to do, so I didn't speak in my classification because I didn't know I was allowed to.

    275

    00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:11,520

    And they said, we don't know what your impairment is.

    276

    00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:20,520

    So the following day I had to go to effectively an indoor football arena and climb an artificial wall.

    277

    00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:29,520

    And they basically just asked me to push off my legs and catch a hold above my head that I couldn't reach from doing it static.

    278

    00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:34,520

    Well, I'm quite a strong upper body climber, so I just grabbed the hold.

    279

    00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,520

    I didn't have any sort of barriers to grabbing those holds.

    280

    00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:42,520

    And the exercises that they put me through didn't make any sense to me.

    281

    00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,520

    So they then said, I don't know.

    282

    00:21:45,520 --> 00:21:47,520

    I still don't know what your classification is.

    283

    00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:55,520

    So I now want you to climb in the qualifications of the World Cup and we'll tell you if you are classifiable.

    284

    00:21:55,520 --> 00:22:00,520

    So I nearly fell off the first climb.

    285

    00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,520

    I ended up falling and just landed on three fingers.

    286

    00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:12,520

    And then on the second climb with my neurological side, which you can't validate or classify, I actually completely forgot what I was doing.

    287

    00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:20,520

    So I fell off like the 10th black hold, A, because I was more stressed about getting classified because I was in the qualification.

    288

    00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:25,520

    And I came off the wall and I had to wait at least the rest of that day to find out if I was classifiable.

    289

    00:22:25,520 --> 00:22:30,520

    By that time, I'd basically not managed to make it to the final.

    290

    00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:36,520

    And then they said, yes, you're classifiable, but now you need to get classified again next year.

    291

    00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:39,520

    So I got classified again in 2022.

    292

    00:22:39,520 --> 00:22:43,520

    And then I got classified again this year.

    293

    00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,520

    And this year was the only year that they gave me a classification for more than one year.

    294

    00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:57,520

    So now I can relax next year and I can just focus on training and competing and not stressing about paying all that money to go to an event, not knowing if I'm going to compete or not.

    295

    00:22:57,520 --> 00:23:03,520

    Because our events as well in our team or in our country, everything's self-funded.

    296

    00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:10,520

    So when you want to join this level, you're kind of sort of saying, okay, I've made the team.

    297

    00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:13,520

    Now I've got to save the money to get there, to get classifiable.

    298

    00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,520

    And you can quite easily get unclassed.

    299

    00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:22,520

    I'm sure Chris might know there's people that have been unclassed and it's really stressful for them.

    300

    00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:40,520

    And then they're, you don't know what to do because you're trying to support your own classification as well as dealing with the issues of the community and how minute these little classification gradients are that can just make somebody go in or go out.

    301

    00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:53,520

    I haven't had a complete failure at a World Cup for classification, but Chris has. So from even just from the first phase of do you get classified, it's really stressful.

    302

    00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:58,520

    Because until you know you're classifiable each year, you've got to go through all that stress.

    303

    00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,520

    But armless and legless, they're confirmed.

    304

    00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:06,520

    You still have to send in strange paperwork like, can you prove that you've got your leg missing?

    305

    00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,520

    I send you a photo. That's not good enough.

    306

    00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:11,520

    I need an x-ray.

    307

    00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,520

    And we're like, it's not going to grow back.

    308

    00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:24,520

    But they still have to go through the same process and the same medical and go through the same part of going, yes, your leg's missing.

    309

    00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:29,520

    But like what's, I'd ask Chris, what was it like to get re-classified?

    310

    00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,520

    I don't know if I could do that in the same same day.

    311

    00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:33,520

    Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    312

    00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:40,520

    So far it's been more stressful every year. So my impairment really is on the minimal side.

    313

    00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:51,520

    You need six points to be an Rb3. And so far I've always scored six or seven points, which also feels weird to sort of hope that you're just disabled enough to be able to compete.

    314

    00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,520

    That's kind of a weird feeling.

    315

    00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:59,520

    So I've been classified the past three years and I'm re-classified again next year.

    316

    00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:08,520

    As I said, classification is always two or three days before the event because then they can also watch in qualifications and that's just where everyone gathers.

    317

    00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,520

    But for me, it means that every year I have to train for a whole year.

    318

    00:25:12,520 --> 00:25:22,520

    I have to drive or fly out to the first most couple of years and they tell me if I can compete for another year or if I'm out forever.

    319

    00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:26,520

    There's no in-between and it's really, really stressful.

    320

    00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:31,520

    I do like to highlight the classifier in an IFC perspective as well.

    321

    00:25:31,520 --> 00:25:34,520

    I mean, they're testing and trying to improve the system.

    322

    00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:45,520

    And at some point it will just be set and sort of, yeah, if they finish developing the classification system, everyone's just classified and then they're confirmed.

    323

    00:25:45,520 --> 00:25:51,520

    But now because it's such a borderline case, they need to classify me every year.

    324

    00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:59,520

    And the way I try to see it is that I don't want to be in a competition if I don't belong there.

    325

    00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:06,520

    So if at some point they decide, well, yeah, of course, we see that you have an environment that's just not enough, like same as missing one finger would not be enough.

    326

    00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:10,520

    So it does not mean there's no climbing, but it's not enough to compete.

    327

    00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:20,520

    And if they decide that for me, it would be, of course, a small personal tragedy, but it would be good for a sport because they're just trying to help the sport forward and just keep the competition and the categories as such.

    328

    00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,520

    And the categories as fair as they can.

    329

    00:26:22,520 --> 00:26:25,520

    So that's how I try to see it.

    330

    00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:29,520

    But of course, last year was pretty terrible.

    331

    00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,520

    We had the first work of the year with an Innsbruck.

    332

    00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:38,520

    There is always one competition before in Southlake City in the US, but it's really expensive to go there.

    333

    00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:46,520

    And I know that I'm being classified, so I don't want to fly out to the US and then sort of have the risk of not being able to compete.

    334

    00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:51,520

    I don't want to take that risk. So I went to a competition in Innsbruck in Austria.

    335

    00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:55,520

    And then the competition started on Monday.

    336

    00:26:55,520 --> 00:27:02,520

    I was classified on Saturday and then two IFC classifiers told me, yeah, we're really sorry, but this is not enough.

    337

    00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,520

    You know, it's going off points.

    338

    00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:10,520

    So you're not eligible, but you can always ask for a second panel of classifiers, so two different classifiers.

    339

    00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,520

    So we said, OK, well, for sure, we mean we're here.

    340

    00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,520

    We might as well. And then they did the measurements.

    341

    00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:22,520

    Of course, it's the same measurements, but they just measured the angles of the joints and everything slightly differently.

    342

    00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:29,520

    And then I was in. And if one panel says yes and one panel says no, then you can compete.

    343

    00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:34,520

    But I think they told me Sunday around 5 in the afternoon that I was allowed to compete.

    344

    00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:41,520

    And then the competition started Monday morning at 9. Yeah, it wasn't my best come.

    345

    00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:53,520

    It's very stressful. So like the process of getting classified, does that happen on the wall like the the clients for regular qualifications?

    346

    00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,520

    No, it is the simplest answer, I think.

    347

    00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:05,520

    So in Innsbruck, if anybody knows the Innsbruck wall, you've got the big outside wall, which is where we had the qualifications in the final.

    348

    00:28:05,520 --> 00:28:15,520

    But the actual classification, like the sports medical, as it's known, was actually done inside and the clitoris centrum on the straight walls.

    349

    00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:19,520

    So it's not the angle of the wall that's the issue.

    350

    00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:31,520

    I think the one thing I try and do when I explain it to my clients is you need to physically be able to show your impairment on the wall while you are climbing.

    351

    00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:37,520

    If the classifiers cannot see your impairment, then they don't know how to how to grade you.

    352

    00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:41,520

    So with my MS, my MS fluctuates.

    353

    00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:51,520

    So when I look at RP each year, my MS can be up and down so I can fluctuate in whichever one, two or three I'm going to end up in,

    354

    00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,520

    depending on whether I have a relapse.

    355

    00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,520

    And thank God I haven't had a major relapse.

    356

    00:28:56,520 --> 00:29:01,520

    So I've just got healthier as my body's recovered and I've ended up in RP3.

    357

    00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:07,520

    But when I was originally diagnosed when I was 36, and I didn't start competing until I was 43.

    358

    00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:13,520

    So I got classified at 43 and then they put me in RP2.

    359

    00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:17,520

    So my impairment is a condition that affects my health on a daily basis.

    360

    00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:29,520

    So from one day to the next, I might request a reclassification because my health fluctuates up and down the scale, whereas some people can have a fixed disability.

    361

    00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,520

    I don't understand that because my health fluctuates up and down.

    362

    00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:35,520

    So I'm kind of just waiting for me.

    363

    00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:46,520

    If RP3 gets too more specific in the classification, I fear that I will get kicked out because I don't see how my impairment affects my climbing.

    364

    00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:50,520

    And yet the classifiers can definitively see my impairment.

    365

    00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,520

    I just climb the way I climb because that's how I am.

    366

    00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:57,520

    I don't know how my body moves any differently to anybody else.

    367

    00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,520

    I'm just heavily focused on the right hand side.

    368

    00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:06,520

    Set me a left moving climb and I find it really difficult to do it.

    369

    00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:19,520

    So do you have to kind of hope on classification day that you're like feeling worse or that you're just like not performing well so you can be classified properly?

    370

    00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:29,520

    Well, the difficulty with me is it's not just another day of classification and it's not just another day of having a sports class.

    371

    00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:34,520

    I have a limited amount of physical energy because of my fatigue system.

    372

    00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:51,520

    So the stress of getting classified on the Saturday and then having to do a sports climb on the Sunday to be in isolation at six o'clock on a Monday to then climb that competition means that I will do less well at qualifications because I'm really fatigued.

    373

    00:30:51,520 --> 00:31:00,520

    And then even if I finish the qualifications and I make the final, which is the Tuesday, in this example we're talking about, I sleep all day on Tuesday.

    374

    00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,520

    I can't physically do anything else.

    375

    00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:12,520

    I've got to sleep to let my body recover and hope that my body is ready to climb again on the evening of the following day.

    376

    00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:24,520

    So the length of the competition and the day that you actually get classified and the additional climbing that you have to do has a big impact on how well I could make a final or a qualification.

    377

    00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:49,520

    And it's something I wanted to point out because I think unless you have this debilitating condition that flares up throughout the course of the competition, I could be an RP3 in a qualification and end up as an RP2 in the final because I can't physically climb anymore because my MS has stopped my legs and my arms from working on that particular day.

    378

    00:31:49,520 --> 00:31:56,520

    So if anybody said to me, would you change a two-day competition to a one-day competition? I'd say no.

    379

    00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:04,520

    Because I think we have a three-day, don't we? We have a classification, then we have a qualification, and then we have a final day.

    380

    00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,520

    So our finals are always on a different day.

    381

    00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:14,520

    But there is potential for them to run the qualifications in the final all in the same day.

    382

    00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:27,520

    For me, that just means I'm going to be really bad in the final, but that's kind of just the way that the sport is going is that if they've got to compress everything into a day, bearing in mind I've got to take medical medicine,

    383

    00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:34,520

    I've got to make sure that I have all of the rest of the energy that I need around my medical system as well.

    384

    00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:41,520

    So in RP, there's not necessarily just you have a condition that affects your skeletal system.

    385

    00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:48,520

    I'm in the bracket of my medicine affects whether I can even attend a competition.

    386

    00:32:48,520 --> 00:33:00,520

    So in Moscow, we had a teammate that couldn't go to the World Cup in Moscow because one of their medicine was banned in Russia, which meant they weren't allowed to complete full stop.

    387

    00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:26,520

    So your medical additional medical requirements around what tablets you take for pain or ataxia or neurological or brain injury, whatever it is, we have to also consider, I know it deviated a little bit, but yeah, just your recovery system to be able to climb again has a big impact on my personal planet.

    388

    00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:31,520

    And that's difficult because that's a problem that's kind of specific to you.

    389

    00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:35,520

    Like that's not something that happens to everyone in the category.

    390

    00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,520

    So it's just like, I think there's a lot.

    391

    00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:54,520

    I think when if you look to RP across the range and you're looking at people that have like muscular dystrophy or whatever, maybe Chris can explain, but there's probably only so much energy that my teammates have because we have quite a few people in wheelchairs now.

    392

    00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,520

    And just pushing a wheelchair and doing all the moving around and everything.

    393

    00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:00,520

    We can't just recover as fast as you could.

    394

    00:34:00,520 --> 00:34:04,520

    I no longer can go to bed or wake up the following day and be able to walk downstairs.

    395

    00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:16,520

    So, but yeah, I think we have had in the past in 2019 when a lot of the Americans came over, they had a big, big group of athletes that came over.

    396

    00:34:16,520 --> 00:34:37,520

    And one of their issues was that their medical requirements around the day of the competition, because if you've got to be in isolation at six o'clock and you don't take your meds till seven, if it takes you three hours to get out of bed like me, then I'm up at three o'clock in the morning just to be able to go in isolation at six to be able to make my body work and function, be able to hold climbs and coordinate.

    397

    00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:57,520

    But that's just how my body works. But there are people that have not only a choice to make on whether they can climb at this level, whether they then their medical requirements fit in with the system of traveling around the world and competing as well, because your medicine might ban you from a competition.

    398

    00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:03,520

    Have you ever needed to just like fully pull out of a competition day of or?

    399

    00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:21,520

    Stubbornly, no. I think I don't know what those power climbers are like, Chris, but last year, the day before my qualification, I met a new international athlete that had MS from Brazil, Marina.

    400

    00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:33,520

    And I saw her and I ran over to her and sat on the bench in front of her and it toppled over because I hadn't got my balance and I squashed my thumb and I crushed it and I crushed the whole top of my thumb.

    401

    00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:40,520

    And I still climbed, I still climbed the qualifications because I just went, I'm a power climber. I've just got a thumb missing. I'm just going to climb it.

    402

    00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,520

    Well, to clarify, you broke your thumb. You broke it, right?

    403

    00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:54,520

    I completely broke the top of the thumb. I crushed the top of it and I was climbing, climbing with like a crag glove. We tight it up like it was a crag climbing glove because I couldn't physically bend it.

    404

    00:35:54,520 --> 00:36:08,520

    So I was basically climbing with four fingers. And this year, I don't mind explaining, but I've been climbing with an open wound across my belly button for the whole of this season due to a big operation in January.

    405

    00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:19,520

    And I couldn't fall on the harness because it could rip more, but there was never any decision on whether I would compete this year.

    406

    00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:26,520

    My only requirement was, could I get to Innsbruck to get classified? Yes, I could. Right. I'm going to burn. I'm just going to enjoy it.

    407

    00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:42,520

    And I just, it's just part of how my recovery system works because climbing is my physio. So whether I've got a broken thumb or whether I've got an open wound on my belly, I just like, just don't pull the rope in too tight.

    408

    00:36:42,520 --> 00:36:54,520

    You'll let me free climb so it doesn't feel like I'm being pulled at all. But you do find that athletes climbing full body harnesses because of some of these systems, if they're tube fed and stuff like that,

    409

    00:36:54,520 --> 00:37:00,520

    then they can't wear a waist harness because it's right where the tube is here, where they actually tube feed.

    410

    00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:07,520

    And I know some clients and some athletes that have these systems or have had them in the past where they've been tube fed from the belly.

    411

    00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:19,520

    So they can't climb with waist harness, but they'll still go and compete, which I think is amazing to see the level of how good our sport is to people with disabilities and impairments.

    412

    00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:25,520

    Oh, yeah. Yeah. And I think your experience is a really good example of everyone's individual experience.

    413

    00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:36,520

    I mean, for me personally, my environment doesn't really affect me in daily life. It doesn't affect my health. I don't really have any medical requirements, but a lot of people do.

    414

    00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:48,520

    And they have to really manage their energy and their health. And I think it's also one of the big differences with regular competitions that for, I mean, you wouldn't go to a regular World Cup if you weren't healthy,

    415

    00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:57,520

    if you were sick. Because for a lot of climbers, I mean, 100% healthy is just they won't, a lot of climbers, they just won't get there.

    416

    00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:05,520

    Forgotten to tell you about my teammate, Ava. She sort of has a habit of before every World Championships, she gets hospitalized.

    417

    00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:15,520

    And I think both in Bern and two years before, she was at the hospital for 10 days or so, and then she went to the World Championships and placed second.

    418

    00:38:15,520 --> 00:38:24,520

    But yeah, there are a lot of climbers who need to sort of manage their health as well, next to training and the logistics of the competition.

    419

    00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:36,520

    You don't really think about what else is going on in their lives while you're watching. So it's interesting to hear the stories behind it, because you kind of just like don't really think about it.

    420

    00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:47,520

    I mean, you just see them perform and maybe, I don't know, it's weird as a viewer. It's just like, it's not something.

    421

    00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:53,520

    Yeah, and especially in RP, I think often it's quite hard to see what someone's impairment or disability is.

    422

    00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:59,520

    People watch me climb there, they say, well, what do you have? Like, what's your impairment? Because I don't see anything.

    423

    00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:07,520

    And there are also quite a lot of climbers who move better on the wall than off the wall. So if you see them climbing, you wouldn't need to see that much.

    424

    00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:12,520

    But then you see that they're in a wheelchair. Like, you wouldn't know if you just saw them climbing.

    425

    00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:21,520

    As for me, I mean, it goes both ways, right? I've been in gyms with my Dutch team clothing, like the Dutch flag on your back.

    426

    00:39:21,520 --> 00:39:29,520

    And I'm climbing and I heard people say, well, if that's the level of the Dutch team, we could be on there. You know, people don't say it.

    427

    00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:33,520

    And I understand it. I don't really mind. It's kind of funny.

    428

    00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:40,520

    Yeah, I think it's good to talk more about paragliding and to highlight that everybody's the same.

    429

    00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:51,520

    Yeah. And I guess talking about the team, how did you specifically find paragliding, I guess, at the national level? Was it easy to get into?

    430

    00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:58,520

    Do most countries have a prominent paragliding team or division or someone to reach out to?

    431

    00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:10,520

    Basically for GB, at grassroots, it's not very, very common at the moment for people to be aware that paragliding exists.

    432

    00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:21,520

    They're still not quite sure what that even means. We've had a change in how the competition seasons run.

    433

    00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:32,520

    So unfortunately, the numbers have gone down, which means that we have less events to attend for next year.

    434

    00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:43,520

    And it's all, it's basically all world of math. There's some push to try and go through social media.

    435

    00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:56,520

    But I think it's just a case of you find out about it and then like me, I try and advocate to try and promote the visibility of this sport,

    436

    00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:08,520

    especially if it makes the Olympics. It means that there could be more funding, but then more people could come and try the sport because they'll see it.

    437

    00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:15,520

    But there's not a lot of advertisement or any sort of communication to know about it.

    438

    00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:28,520

    I mean, I got diagnosed with MS in 2009. It took me to 2016 to realise there was actually a place I could go and see other people like myself.

    439

    00:41:28,520 --> 00:41:36,520

    But paragliding, I think for GB, has been going on since 2012. So I lost four years just by not even knowing it existed.

    440

    00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:42,520

    What's it like in Holland? Well, I can share my story of how I got into paragliding.

    441

    00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:49,520

    In 2020, I travelled around a bit with the van that I had back then and my climbing level increased quite a bit.

    442

    00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:54,520

    And I just noticed, well, a little more background. I didn't know that I had this impairment.

    443

    00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:59,520

    I knew that my left ankle was quite stiff, that I didn't move as I should.

    444

    00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:07,520

    And I suspected that my left side was less strong and coordinated, but I didn't know for sure. And it doesn't impair me in daily life.

    445

    00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:10,520

    So I just didn't pay attention to it.

    446

    00:42:10,520 --> 00:42:18,520

    And then I went on this climbing trip and as I progressed through the levels, I was like, wait, other people are making this field look so easy.

    447

    00:42:18,520 --> 00:42:23,520

    And I just can't, I just like, I physically cannot do it. What's going on?

    448

    00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:29,520

    So when I came back, I was a physiotherapist for something else, not on my knees.

    449

    00:42:29,520 --> 00:42:34,520

    And then we were talking about a paraglider who is now my teammate.

    450

    00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:40,520

    And then I sort of jokingly said, oh, do you think I could be on the team, you know, with my ankle on my left side that's a bit weaker?

    451

    00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:46,520

    It was a joke, but then he looked at me and he said, well, yeah, maybe you could actually.

    452

    00:42:46,520 --> 00:42:55,520

    So I sent an email to the team and you could just Google the email address, send an email. And then a year later I was at my first World Cup.

    453

    00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:57,520

    That's sort of how it went.

    454

    00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:04,520

    How long did you climb before you knew that you had, I guess, a disability?

    455

    00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:13,520

    Three years. Yeah. And I also, I always did regular sports and I mean, I was never the most talented.

    456

    00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:16,520

    I used to think of myself as just a really clumsy person.

    457

    00:43:16,520 --> 00:43:28,520

    And I've come to realize it's actually the other way around for what I have, which is very well developed, like in terms of control and physical ability.

    458

    00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:33,520

    But also you can only, you only know how you exist in your own body.

    459

    00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:38,520

    So I thought that this is what it feels like to be left and right handed.

    460

    00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:44,520

    It's like, oh, I'm right handed. So of course my left side feels like this, but it comes to realize that it doesn't feel like that for other people.

    461

    00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:46,520

    I just thought it was.

    462

    00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,520

    Was it kind of like a relief to find out?

    463

    00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:55,520

    Not really. It's taken a long time for me to say, yeah, I have an impairment.

    464

    00:43:55,520 --> 00:44:01,520

    I find it hard to call myself disabled because I am not disabled in daily life in any way.

    465

    00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:12,520

    But the first year when I was competing, I got the diagnosis cerebral palsy, I don't know, two or three months before the first competition, because you need to have an underlying impairment.

    466

    00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:17,520

    You cannot say, oh, I don't stretch enough. So I can't lift my shoulders above my head. So I'm a paraclomer.

    467

    00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:21,520

    There needs to be a condition lying underneath.

    468

    00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:27,520

    And I didn't know mine. So I saw a neurologist and they told me I have CP.

    469

    00:44:27,520 --> 00:44:33,520

    And it was really weird, actually. It was definitely a bit of a small identity crisis thing.

    470

    00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:42,520

    Well, it wasn't so bad. But during my first competition on the livestream, they always asked, can we share your impairment?

    471

    00:44:42,520 --> 00:44:48,520

    And I was like, well, half of my family doesn't even know. I don't think I want to see Lisa on the livestream.

    472

    00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:59,520

    So I had first year I wasn't so open about it. And then next year is, yeah, now I don't, I don't think I can go to be able to compete and have these experiences.

    473

    00:44:59,520 --> 00:45:06,520

    And I think we had talked about this a little bit earlier. So Paraclimbing is still a little bit new.

    474

    00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:10,520

    When did it start and how has it progressed since then?

    475

    00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:22,520

    I looked into this a little bit for you. It looks like it started around 2009, 2010. So it's a really, really new sport.

    476

    00:45:22,520 --> 00:45:25,520

    It's only been going 13 years. So we're trying to get at the Olympics.

    477

    00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:34,520

    And at the time, the way the competition ran, you can go to a website called Paraclimbing.org

    478

    00:45:34,520 --> 00:45:41,520

    and it's got all the links to all the videos for every year that there's ever been anything put on social media.

    479

    00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:51,520

    So when you go to Paraclimbing.org and you go back through the calendars, we've written and you can see for next year as well,

    480

    00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:59,520

    we write the calendar of what's coming up. We put a link to all the videos and the photos publication.

    481

    00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:07,520

    So when I looked back in, I think it was 2009 or 2010, they had speed Paraclimbing,

    482

    00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:15,520

    which was just random holds on a vertical wall and any discipline and competed against anybody. And I thought that was bizarre.

    483

    00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:22,520

    In my nationals back when I think I started in 2016, we had bouldering on ropes.

    484

    00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:27,520

    We had a top rope at the top of a boulder. We had that as part of our nationals.

    485

    00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:36,520

    And then going back to the calendar, I think it's 2012, 2014, 2016, 2018, 2021 and this year.

    486

    00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:44,520

    So you can go back and again, look through Paraclimbing.org and you can see all the live streams that have been uploaded and linked to it.

    487

    00:46:44,520 --> 00:46:51,520

    But yeah, it's like 13 years old. And if we consider, was it 2017? That's when you started.

    488

    00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:59,520

    2020 was when we really got classified. It's three years old at this level of impairment. It's only three years old.

    489

    00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:05,520

    And so when did they decide to just do, I guess, rope courses?

    490

    00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:14,520

    When the able-bodied team were picked for the Olympics. I think that's when we were stuck on ropes, but international level, sorry,

    491

    00:47:14,520 --> 00:47:21,520

    we're only allowed to climb on twin ropes, which is two top ropes coming down. We're not allowed to lead climb.

    492

    00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:31,520

    We're hoping they're going to let us lead climb in the future and we would love to try bouldering, but it's only at your local national level.

    493

    00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:38,520

    They can choose to change how their national competition runs. So if USA want to put bouldering in, they can.

    494

    00:47:38,520 --> 00:47:46,520

    If they want to put speed in, they can. It's up to the federation to choose. In UK, we only follow IFSC.

    495

    00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:56,520

    So if IFSC changed, I think our national will change. But pre-2017, we had bouldering as well as ropes in the UK.

    496

    00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:05,520

    Is that something that you guys want to do? Like you want to see bouldering and speed in the international level?

    497

    00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:14,520

    Oh, I would love bouldering. There's no rope climbing in the city where I live, so I train bouldering quite a lot.

    498

    00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:24,520

    I really like it. I don't know if this is true, but I suspect that they chose for the top rope system that we have because everyone can top rope safely.

    499

    00:48:24,520 --> 00:48:33,520

    So how it works is you have the wall. Normally there's one top rope at the top, but if you fell low down, you would swing into the crowd and everything.

    500

    00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:40,520

    So they put a second top rope halfway, which means that if you fall low down, that top rope catches you.

    501

    00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:45,520

    And not everyone can fall safely, so not everyone can safely take a big leadfall.

    502

    00:48:45,520 --> 00:48:56,520

    And of course, for example, the blind climbers, I think they will lead in their free time, but in a competition, it's a little bit unfair to ask them to lock off and look for a quick draw.

    503

    00:48:56,520 --> 00:49:04,520

    Same for people with one arm, like if it's a tough hold for you to hold and then you have to clip from there, that's just a bit unfair maybe.

    504

    00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:10,520

    Same for bouldering, not everyone can take falls safely. So I think that's why they chose the top rope system.

    505

    00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:17,520

    But if bara bouldering is a thing, I'm there at every competition, every competition, I'll show up.

    506

    00:49:17,520 --> 00:49:27,520

    I'm the same because with my impairment, I can't walk down the street, I can't run, I can't cycle a bike, but I can climb vertically a lot better than I can walk.

    507

    00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:34,520

    And I prefer bouldering because I can do short climbs and have a crash pad.

    508

    00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:45,520

    Whereas I'm not very good at trying to climb in a multi-pitch because that's just not how my condition lets me climb.

    509

    00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:51,520

    I struggle to find because I am disabled in the sense that I don't work apart from the climbing coach.

    510

    00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:57,520

    I'm free most of the day, Monday to Friday, and there's not a lot of other people that are, so I boulder.

    511

    00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:03,520

    And then I only go on ropes like I think quite a lot of us do. I think we boulder more than we...

    512

    00:50:03,520 --> 00:50:06,520

    So I'd like bouldering in the World Cups as well.

    513

    00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:11,520

    Yeah, that'd be cool to see. But yeah, I guess it could be a safety concern depending on the category.

    514

    00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:13,520

    Yeah, you'd probably need a rope system.

    515

    00:50:13,520 --> 00:50:19,520

    Please excuse this brief intermission, but I would just like to remind you that if you are enjoying this podcast,

    516

    00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,520

    please follow and rate it on your preferred listening platform.

    517

    00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:27,520

    If you're watching on YouTube, I would love to hear your discussion and thoughts in the comments below.

    518

    00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:33,520

    Anything helps to push this podcast out to more people and get even more amazing guests on.

    519

    00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:38,520

    Back to the show. How many routes are set for Paraclimbing events?

    520

    00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:42,520

    And sometimes they're like shared between categories, correct?

    521

    00:50:42,520 --> 00:50:51,520

    Yes, exactly. Yeah. In general, I'd say they set four or five routes for classification and four Paraclimbs finals.

    522

    00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:57,520

    And then our B3 women often shares with B2 or B3, so one for blind categories,

    523

    00:50:57,520 --> 00:51:06,520

    the women with one leg, women with one arm, so A01, A02, and then maybe some others as well.

    524

    00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:14,520

    Which means it's for the route setters. I talked to a route setter who sets for nationals.

    525

    00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:20,520

    And he said, yeah, so you want to make a route that is if you share it with the campus guys,

    526

    00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:23,520

    it needs to be you need to be able to campus every move.

    527

    00:51:23,520 --> 00:51:29,520

    Then if people are blind, you need to make sure that it's you can lock off every move and look for the next hold.

    528

    00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:38,520

    Well, that's relatively easy. But then it needs to be fair if you miss your left leg or your right leg.

    529

    00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:41,520

    And it needs to be fair if you miss your left arm or your right arm.

    530

    00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:50,520

    I think what they usually try to do is sort of set a intermediate sort of they choose a point in the route where they expect, OK,

    531

    00:51:50,520 --> 00:51:54,520

    we expect the women with one arm to climb more or less until here.

    532

    00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:59,520

    So after that, we can make it a little bit harder and doesn't need to be so equal anymore if you miss an arm.

    533

    00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:09,520

    They try to create separation in the first half of the route, for example, for the A02 women and then the second part for the A02 women.

    534

    00:52:09,520 --> 00:52:15,520

    And then the last part, that's where they expect the P3 to sort of decide the competition.

    535

    00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:18,520

    I think they usually play that quite well.

    536

    00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:26,520

    It means for our P3, because I think to look at the women, our level is more or less the highest, I'd say.

    537

    00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:31,520

    It means that our competitions, you're expected to climb to the headwall if you make finals.

    538

    00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:37,520

    And the comp is decided in four or five moves, like the last four or five moves with the route.

    539

    00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:44,520

    They really expect you to climb until there. And then it gets hard for your category.

    540

    00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:47,520

    I mean, it's hard for, but then it gets really hard.

    541

    00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:51,520

    And for my environments, for example, my left side powers up.

    542

    00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,520

    So for me, if the crux was at the beginning, then it would get easier.

    543

    00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:56,520

    It would be way better for me.

    544

    00:52:56,520 --> 00:53:00,520

    And now it's like my left side is completely powered up and then the route gets hard.

    545

    00:53:00,520 --> 00:53:04,520

    So for me, it's not even ideal, actually, but that's how they combine the routes.

    546

    00:53:04,520 --> 00:53:12,520

    And then they set four or five usually, and then they look at the level.

    547

    00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:15,520

    So different kind of climbing standards.

    548

    00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:20,520

    So I think they can have up to eight routes during qualifications.

    549

    00:53:20,520 --> 00:53:24,520

    So they had eight routes in Innsbruck, four on the back and four on the front,

    550

    00:53:24,520 --> 00:53:28,520

    because they've got so many athletes to get through, but they can't have any more than eight.

    551

    00:53:28,520 --> 00:53:34,520

    I think in Moscow in the World Champs, they only had six because they're in that stupid little corner.

    552

    00:53:34,520 --> 00:53:36,520

    I don't know if you were there, Chris.

    553

    00:53:36,520 --> 00:53:38,520

    You're in Moscow. Okay.

    554

    00:53:38,520 --> 00:53:45,520

    So you were in a little corner, so they only had one, two, three, four routes.

    555

    00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:53,520

    And then at the moment, they only allow us four lines at Bern World Championships.

    556

    00:53:53,520 --> 00:54:00,520

    So we had one on the speed wall, I think, and then you guys were on the head wall.

    557

    00:54:00,520 --> 00:54:02,520

    They can't put any more lines on.

    558

    00:54:02,520 --> 00:54:05,520

    We've got 200 athletes competing today.

    559

    00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:17,520

    If we grow even more like we hoped to, then the IFSC would look into, do we have finals over two days?

    560

    00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:23,520

    So would you do qualification and final for RP3?

    561

    00:54:23,520 --> 00:54:26,520

    So that would impair my energy levels.

    562

    00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:33,520

    And then do it again on the second day, because someone like Matt Groom currently has to speak for like six hours continually,

    563

    00:54:33,520 --> 00:54:39,520

    because we would be going into finals at six in the morning.

    564

    00:54:39,520 --> 00:54:41,520

    No, it's in the evenings normally.

    565

    00:54:41,520 --> 00:54:43,520

    We start our finals in the evenings.

    566

    00:54:43,520 --> 00:54:50,520

    I've been in finals at 10, 11 o'clock at night and been stuck at isolation at five o'clock in the afternoon.

    567

    00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:56,520

    And I'm stuck in isolation for five hours because of the live stream.

    568

    00:54:56,520 --> 00:55:00,520

    So all of our stuff is available on IFSC YouTube.

    569

    00:55:00,520 --> 00:55:06,520

    So we're getting to a point where we either want more lines so we can run more categories in the final.

    570

    00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:13,520

    The downside is at the moment is that if we have two or more sports classes in the final,

    571

    00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:17,520

    at the moment Matt Groom can do a split live screen.

    572

    00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:21,520

    So he can talk about this person who's legless and this person that's RP.

    573

    00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:26,520

    We did have in the Brionson 2019 World Championships, we had a quad.

    574

    00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:29,520

    He had four finalists on at the same time.

    575

    00:55:29,520 --> 00:55:36,520

    He couldn't commentate with Seb because the audience can't tell which person they're looking at.

    576

    00:55:36,520 --> 00:55:43,520

    So if we have more than two people on the live stream, we now need more routes

    577

    00:55:43,520 --> 00:55:49,520

    because we're getting that good at climbing that you can't just keep multiple people on the same line,

    578

    00:55:49,520 --> 00:55:57,520

    but also reduce the length of the live stream because six hours is a nightmare.

    579

    00:55:57,520 --> 00:56:07,520

    But for us, that would be good because then they wouldn't be necessarily putting an AEU and a blind on an RP route

    580

    00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:11,520

    because you don't want to fall off halfway if that's where they are expecting the arm amputees to fall off

    581

    00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:13,520

    because they want to climb to the top.

    582

    00:56:13,520 --> 00:56:15,520

    So why can't they have a full route?

    583

    00:56:15,520 --> 00:56:18,520

    But I think that's just the progression of us growing so much.

    584

    00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:23,520

    When I first started in 2017, there were only 96 para-athletes.

    585

    00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:27,520

    I think there was, was it 200 at Byrne or something?

    586

    00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:37,520

    Which meant that because we're growing, at the moment, our RP3 final is only four athletes.

    587

    00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:40,520

    If we grow and grow and grow, that number gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

    588

    00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:43,520

    That means our final gets longer and longer and longer.

    589

    00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:49,520

    So behind the scenes, there's a lot of how quick can we get through this many athletes?

    590

    00:56:49,520 --> 00:56:53,520

    And it's quite strange because obviously in male and female competition climbing,

    591

    00:56:53,520 --> 00:57:00,520

    they've only got qualifications in the final where the root setters have got eight qualification routes

    592

    00:57:00,520 --> 00:57:02,520

    and then four finals.

    593

    00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:07,520

    And then we have up to 20 sports podiums, 10 male and 10 female.

    594

    00:57:07,520 --> 00:57:10,520

    That's 20 podiums.

    595

    00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:13,520

    60 athletes have to be announced and compete.

    596

    00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:17,520

    That's a lot more than just having six for the seniors and the females.

    597

    00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,520

    So our days were a lot longer.

    598

    00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:22,520

    Hopefully it'll grow.

    599

    00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:27,520

    Hopefully they'll come up with a better way of running a final because it is a very long day.

    600

    00:57:27,520 --> 00:57:39,520

    Would you prefer if they had just fewer categories and stricter guidelines for who can be a part of it?

    601

    00:57:39,520 --> 00:57:42,520

    Oh, I wanted to say because in the case of you, it'll kick me out.

    602

    00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:44,520

    So no, I don't want to say.

    603

    00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:48,520

    So I don't know what the solution is, but yeah.

    604

    00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:55,520

    I think now this is running into some logistical issues.

    605

    00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:58,520

    Like Anita touched on, normally you have six athletes in finals in burn.

    606

    00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:00,520

    It was at 70 or 80.

    607

    00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:03,520

    And first time I see isolation.

    608

    00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:10,520

    It's 60, 70 people sitting there with coaches and then people with impairments.

    609

    00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:16,520

    There are a lot of wheelchairs prosthetics lying around everywhere, guide dogs everywhere for the blind people.

    610

    00:58:16,520 --> 00:58:19,520

    It's like absolute chaos.

    611

    00:58:19,520 --> 00:58:20,520

    It's really hard.

    612

    00:58:20,520 --> 00:58:24,520

    Can be really hard to warm up as well because 70 people want to warm up at the same time.

    613

    00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:27,520

    And there's like one small ballroom wall usually to warm up on.

    614

    00:58:27,520 --> 00:58:30,520

    So yeah, it's really good that sports is growing.

    615

    00:58:30,520 --> 00:58:34,520

    And I'm also really curious how they will manage the logistics.

    616

    00:58:34,520 --> 00:58:36,520

    At the moment, we have 10 sports classes.

    617

    00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:44,520

    So three blind, two legless, two armless and three RPs.

    618

    00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:54,520

    Times male and female, that's 20 different kind of routes that have to be in a route setters head and then merged into four lines for the final.

    619

    00:58:54,520 --> 00:59:01,520

    So what's really, really good is our route setters are learning and they have progressed a lot since we first started.

    620

    00:59:01,520 --> 00:59:08,520

    But our ability to climb and I did want to point out that we can climb the same route as a male and female.

    621

    00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:10,520

    There's no difference.

    622

    00:59:10,520 --> 00:59:12,520

    There's no age in para climbing.

    623

    00:59:12,520 --> 00:59:18,520

    So as long as you're 16, you will compete against a 50 or 60 year old.

    624

    00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:28,520

    And the route setters, they're constantly involving and learning how to route set because we're getting a lot better.

    625

    00:59:28,520 --> 00:59:33,520

    So I think it'll always be 10 sports classes.

    626

    00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:34,520

    They can't have any more.

    627

    00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:49,520

    I think that's set by the IFC, which means that if we have a new category come in like AU3, which is fingers, then AU1, which was paralyzed or missing full arm is merged into an RP.

    628

    00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:51,520

    That's a little bit unfair.

    629

    00:59:51,520 --> 01:00:01,520

    But I think like any sport, any para sport, we have so many categories. They've got to whittle down how much they can get through in a three or four day competition.

    630

    01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:05,520

    And rightly so with the isolation bit, which is hilarious.

    631

    01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:08,520

    I don't know if you've experienced this yet, Chris.

    632

    01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:16,520

    In 2018 in Innsbruck in the World Championships, the seniors and the para climbers were in isolation at the same time.

    633

    01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:27,520

    It was one of the best isolations for finals I've been in because Alex Pucho and Sean McCall were playing pool while I was sitting down underneath the pool table.

    634

    01:00:27,520 --> 01:00:30,520

    So the paras were merged in at the same time.

    635

    01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:35,520

    So we have like, say, 40 athletes with 12 seniors.

    636

    01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:39,520

    And we only had a small bouldering wall with no rope.

    637

    01:00:39,520 --> 01:00:41,520

    And there was nowhere for us to actually warm up.

    638

    01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:47,520

    So someone that's in a wheelchair might not warm up in isolation because they can't get on the bouldering wall.

    639

    01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:54,520

    There's still how do they look after the athletes from a warming up point of view.

    640

    01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:57,520

    It's a lot harder for us to be able to do it.

    641

    01:00:57,520 --> 01:00:59,520

    But yeah, it can only get better.

    642

    01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:01,520

    That's what I'm looking forward to seeing the changes.

    643

    01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:06,520

    Yeah. So do you feel like in terms of venues, the IFSC has been accommodating so far?

    644

    01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:08,520

    Good question.

    645

    01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:22,520

    It depends. If I was honest, and I've not been, so I can't tell you, but because my condition is physically moving around the venue,

    646

    01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:28,520

    Villars were having a brand new competition next year called the European Championships.

    647

    01:01:28,520 --> 01:01:30,520

    It's a brand new event for Paraclimbers.

    648

    01:01:30,520 --> 01:01:37,520

    And it's at Villars in Austria. It's the hilliest, mountainistic, up and down thing you could find.

    649

    01:01:37,520 --> 01:01:40,520

    I've never been, so I don't know. I just heard from teammates.

    650

    01:01:40,520 --> 01:01:44,520

    But pushing a wheelchair and walking around on crutches, it's not the best venue.

    651

    01:01:44,520 --> 01:01:46,520

    But we have no other options.

    652

    01:01:46,520 --> 01:01:55,520

    We've only got Salt Lake City, Innsbruck, Villars that currently hold yearly competitions.

    653

    01:01:55,520 --> 01:02:00,520

    There's no other places I can think of that actually hold World Cups at the moment.

    654

    01:02:00,520 --> 01:02:10,520

    You're right. And from the organizer point of view, I mean, they're almost, well, I probably shouldn't say this,

    655

    01:02:10,520 --> 01:02:12,520

    they're almost doing us a favor, right?

    656

    01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:18,520

    Because it's so much more work to organize for a lot less exposure for the organizer.

    657

    01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:23,520

    So I think, yeah, I'm personally really happy people are organized for Paraclimbing events.

    658

    01:02:23,520 --> 01:02:30,520

    But I mean, I cannot speak from, I don't need any, like I don't have any mobility needs.

    659

    01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:34,520

    So I think I'm in a weird position where for me that doesn't really matter.

    660

    01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:38,520

    Yeah, I think you mentioned there were like 70 people in ISO.

    661

    01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:44,520

    Are there any like special things that they provide in isolation for Paraclimbers to warm up?

    662

    01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:49,520

    Or is it just the regular spray wall, bouldering wall, whatever they have?

    663

    01:02:49,520 --> 01:02:58,520

    Historically, most of the, so I've done competitions in 2018 all the way up to 23.

    664

    01:02:58,520 --> 01:03:03,520

    Most of my competitions, because they've been World Championships and not World Cups,

    665

    01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:08,520

    I've been in the same isolation as the Janyas and the Jakobsjubas.

    666

    01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:14,520

    So our isolation at the moment is only the seniors isolation setup.

    667

    01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:18,520

    There's no additional adaptations for us.

    668

    01:03:18,520 --> 01:03:24,520

    The only time I saw it was in Bern this year where somebody put in a top rope

    669

    01:03:24,520 --> 01:03:30,520

    on the top of a bouldering ply MDF wall.

    670

    01:03:30,520 --> 01:03:32,520

    It wasn't a structural top rope.

    671

    01:03:32,520 --> 01:03:37,520

    It was just put straight into the T-bolts, which is not the best idea.

    672

    01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:44,520

    So I've never been anywhere right now where anything has been put in isolation

    673

    01:03:44,520 --> 01:03:46,520

    that works for Paraclimbers.

    674

    01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:50,520

    Because I don't know, Chris, how Ava gets off the ground on a bouldering wall

    675

    01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:52,520

    if she doesn't have the rope.

    676

    01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:57,520

    I don't know how Angelino is going to do it as the campers from AL1 Austrian.

    677

    01:03:57,520 --> 01:04:00,520

    I don't know how Pavitra does it because you've got to remember,

    678

    01:04:00,520 --> 01:04:05,520

    we have to climb up the bouldering wall and we have to climb down because we can't fall.

    679

    01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:09,520

    Yeah, so a lot of people adapt their warming up to be able to warm up

    680

    01:04:09,520 --> 01:04:12,520

    if they need to warm up but they cannot fall.

    681

    01:04:12,520 --> 01:04:17,520

    Or we also trained, like within the Lodge team, we trained to do a warming up

    682

    01:04:17,520 --> 01:04:19,520

    with just a hangboard.

    683

    01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:22,520

    Sort of, yeah, you try to adapt your warm up so that if the wall is too busy

    684

    01:04:22,520 --> 01:04:24,520

    or you can't go on the wall because there are no ropes,

    685

    01:04:24,520 --> 01:04:30,520

    which is an issue, then you can still warm up properly for a competition.

    686

    01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:34,520

    Yeah, but I think Bern is a really good example of where they got.

    687

    01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:37,520

    As far as I can tell, they did everything right.

    688

    01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:41,520

    It was, from what I've heard from other people, a really accessible venue,

    689

    01:04:41,520 --> 01:04:44,520

    rent everywhere. Yeah.

    690

    01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:46,520

    Wasn't really a cool event.

    691

    01:04:46,520 --> 01:04:52,520

    This is good while you've got two of us, one that's like Chris and one that's like me.

    692

    01:04:52,520 --> 01:04:56,520

    Because the biggest problem I found in Bern is you couldn't get to the disabled toilet

    693

    01:04:56,520 --> 01:05:03,520

    because it was behind the competition wall in isolation down a lift,

    694

    01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:09,520

    which you could only access before the seniors did their bouldering or their lead.

    695

    01:05:09,520 --> 01:05:13,520

    As soon as their competition started, because we were at the same venue,

    696

    01:05:13,520 --> 01:05:18,520

    you couldn't access that lift because you couldn't go through the isolation

    697

    01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:20,520

    to get to the disabled toilet.

    698

    01:05:20,520 --> 01:05:24,520

    So it was fine we could do it, but we had to plan it.

    699

    01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:30,520

    So for example, in Bern, you had the big wall and then you had a bit on the ice rink,

    700

    01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:34,520

    which the wheelchair users and the people on crutches could get to

    701

    01:05:34,520 --> 01:05:36,520

    as long as they could get down the lift.

    702

    01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:43,520

    As soon as any of the senior speed lead bouldering that you wanted to watch was on,

    703

    01:05:43,520 --> 01:05:49,520

    you could see people being carried down the ice stadium stairs to get to that same level.

    704

    01:05:49,520 --> 01:05:51,520

    There was no way you could get the wheelchair down.

    705

    01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:55,520

    I was seeing people go down on the bum that was in the wheelchair.

    706

    01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:57,520

    So we had to plan a lot more.

    707

    01:05:57,520 --> 01:05:59,520

    And that's the thing.

    708

    01:05:59,520 --> 01:06:02,520

    If I want to go to a competition in Innsbruck,

    709

    01:06:02,520 --> 01:06:06,520

    I have to physically know three, four months ahead

    710

    01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:08,520

    how I'm going to physically travel all the way there.

    711

    01:06:08,520 --> 01:06:11,520

    I can't just jump on the plane at the last minute.

    712

    01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:17,520

    So yeah, Bern was brilliant, apart from the fact that you only disabled toilet

    713

    01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:19,520

    to get down on the ground floor.

    714

    01:06:19,520 --> 01:06:22,520

    So imagine you're down the bottom, but you need the toilet.

    715

    01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:24,520

    You couldn't get to the lift and get out.

    716

    01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:28,520

    You had to be carried up the stairs to get to the able-bodied toilets,

    717

    01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:31,520

    or you just couldn't go down to that part of the area,

    718

    01:06:31,520 --> 01:06:36,520

    which is most of where we want to shout anybody, whether we're able-bodied or not.

    719

    01:06:36,520 --> 01:06:40,520

    You still want to go shout your own country's team, don't you?

    720

    01:06:40,520 --> 01:06:44,520

    Because you want to go and support your team.

    721

    01:06:44,520 --> 01:06:47,520

    But it's just little things like that that I just want to point out

    722

    01:06:47,520 --> 01:06:53,520

    that there's a lot more that needs to be done for accessibility through mobility aids

    723

    01:06:53,520 --> 01:06:58,520

    versus assuming we can just turn up and can't just turn up, some of us.

    724

    01:06:58,520 --> 01:07:01,520

    I said it and then I realized I'm not the one to judge accessibility,

    725

    01:07:01,520 --> 01:07:03,520

    so thanks for adding that to me.

    726

    01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:08,520

    Is there anything you can think of right now that you would want to see in isolation

    727

    01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:12,520

    or at a venue that would just greatly help things?

    728

    01:07:12,520 --> 01:07:18,520

    The biggest things I've seen in the past is not having a toilet behind the final wall

    729

    01:07:18,520 --> 01:07:25,520

    when you're called from isolation to sit in behind the big wall.

    730

    01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:30,520

    When it's outdoor venues and they don't give you a toilet so you can go to the toilet,

    731

    01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:34,520

    that's one of the biggest things I've noticed because I have no bladder control.

    732

    01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:37,520

    I can't control when I'm going to go to the toilet or not.

    733

    01:07:37,520 --> 01:07:44,520

    I've had situations where I've had to go run behind a banner and have some teammates look out

    734

    01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:49,520

    so I can go to the toilet in the middle of being stuck in isolation in the final, in an outdoor event.

    735

    01:07:49,520 --> 01:07:53,520

    Because once you're put into these different parts behind the wall,

    736

    01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:56,520

    you can't move out of them.

    737

    01:07:56,520 --> 01:08:02,520

    So simple things like stuff like that is quite handy.

    738

    01:08:02,520 --> 01:08:07,520

    I don't think we'd get ropes because they build the isolation area.

    739

    01:08:07,520 --> 01:08:12,520

    It's a prefabricated area.

    740

    01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:15,520

    We get food and drink, which is good. I quite like that.

    741

    01:08:15,520 --> 01:08:21,520

    I'd like physios and stuff, but we have to bring our own or we borrow each other's.

    742

    01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:27,520

    I do find that community-wise, when we're getting ready for qualifications or finals,

    743

    01:08:27,520 --> 01:08:30,520

    whoever's brought the medical person or whoever's brought the physio,

    744

    01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:35,520

    we all share those people in isolation, which is really good.

    745

    01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:41,520

    I think the GB had somebody in burn and everybody was just borrowing him to get warm up.

    746

    01:08:41,520 --> 01:08:46,520

    Yeah, so that's sort of like an issue with funding and being able to bring people on the team

    747

    01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:51,520

    who, I guess, have to pay their own way to get to the competition.

    748

    01:08:51,520 --> 01:08:53,520

    Yeah, and there are big differences within countries as well.

    749

    01:08:53,520 --> 01:08:56,520

    In the Netherlands, we do get some funding for competitions,

    750

    01:08:56,520 --> 01:09:03,520

    and for the comps within Europe, it's usually just enough to cover it, more or less.

    751

    01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:07,520

    But we have a teammate in the wheelchair, so we need to rent an accessible apartment,

    752

    01:09:07,520 --> 01:09:10,520

    and the car needs to be big enough to sit in her wheelchair,

    753

    01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:14,520

    and she needs someone to come with her to just help her out throughout the day.

    754

    01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:19,520

    It's sort of an energy management thing, and that is not covered.

    755

    01:09:19,520 --> 01:09:23,520

    So she is still paying a lot more than I am,

    756

    01:09:23,520 --> 01:09:27,520

    because she just needs someone there because of her environment.

    757

    01:09:27,520 --> 01:09:32,520

    But I still would say that we're quite lucky in the Netherlands to get some form of support.

    758

    01:09:32,520 --> 01:09:36,520

    Some countries have Paraclimbing fully funded, like the regular teams,

    759

    01:09:36,520 --> 01:09:39,520

    and other countries just get nothing at all.

    760

    01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:42,520

    So there is big differences, I'd say.

    761

    01:09:42,520 --> 01:09:48,520

    Yeah, I mean, even a lot of athletes in the Senior World Cup circuit, I think, struggle with funding.

    762

    01:09:48,520 --> 01:09:51,520

    So is it comparable in Paraclimbing?

    763

    01:09:51,520 --> 01:09:56,520

    Like, how do you guys fund your competition journeys?

    764

    01:09:56,520 --> 01:09:59,520

    My job is my sponsor.

    765

    01:09:59,520 --> 01:10:04,520

    It's a very good question.

    766

    01:10:04,520 --> 01:10:10,520

    It's definitely something that comes up, because we are all entitled to what's known as an aid

    767

    01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:13,520

    to international Paraclimbing.

    768

    01:10:13,520 --> 01:10:18,520

    When we register for a competition, we are allowed to take a plus one.

    769

    01:10:18,520 --> 01:10:21,520

    Each athlete is on the team.

    770

    01:10:21,520 --> 01:10:25,520

    Now, currently, our team is about 22 athletes in size.

    771

    01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:32,520

    So the federation will get a small amount of money, and that is divided across 22 athletes.

    772

    01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:39,520

    So as a bigger team, we have very little money.

    773

    01:10:39,520 --> 01:10:42,520

    And I don't like to call it this, but my brain wants to say it.

    774

    01:10:42,520 --> 01:10:50,520

    I call it a rich man's sport, because there's no financial gains from competing at this level.

    775

    01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:52,520

    We don't get any rewards.

    776

    01:10:52,520 --> 01:11:01,520

    We get a lovely medal, but we don't get any financial rewards that allow us to go to the next event.

    777

    01:11:01,520 --> 01:11:02,520

    We're not big enough yet.

    778

    01:11:02,520 --> 01:11:06,520

    We don't have the audience following.

    779

    01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:09,520

    People don't come and watch our events very much.

    780

    01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:12,520

    And if we do, it's because we're with the seniors.

    781

    01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:16,520

    I've been at World Cups when there's been high-bearing people there during qualifications,

    782

    01:11:16,520 --> 01:11:19,520

    because the seniors haven't been climbing.

    783

    01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:28,520

    So mine is I coach and try and coach people in climbing.

    784

    01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:40,520

    I have the benefits that help me live on a daily basis and trying to occasionally make something that I can sell.

    785

    01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:44,520

    Or I think people make woolly hats.

    786

    01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:49,520

    I make little key rings, little short bag key rings that I sell off to the community.

    787

    01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:50,520

    But yeah.

    788

    01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:57,520

    And then I have to pay twice as much as Chris, because I personally have to take a carer,

    789

    01:11:57,520 --> 01:12:02,520

    because I can't mentally navigate the transport system.

    790

    01:12:02,520 --> 01:12:05,520

    I can't get on the plane and the train and the automobile.

    791

    01:12:05,520 --> 01:12:07,520

    I can't drive a car.

    792

    01:12:07,520 --> 01:12:10,520

    So I need that plus one.

    793

    01:12:10,520 --> 01:12:18,520

    Our team works slightly different in the sense that because our team is so big, we just meet at the venue.

    794

    01:12:18,520 --> 01:12:23,520

    There's no collective transport.

    795

    01:12:23,520 --> 01:12:25,520

    We all fly in from different parts in the UK.

    796

    01:12:25,520 --> 01:12:28,520

    We've got some people at the north of England.

    797

    01:12:28,520 --> 01:12:29,520

    Some people in the West.

    798

    01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:39,520

    We all dive on into Geneva and then get on a car or public transport and all go into competition.

    799

    01:12:39,520 --> 01:12:44,520

    And we're not very good in our team at sharing accommodation.

    800

    01:12:44,520 --> 01:12:50,520

    We're very independently collectively want to just have our own space or our own mean time,

    801

    01:12:50,520 --> 01:12:54,520

    because that's how we like to acclimatize around our events.

    802

    01:12:54,520 --> 01:12:57,520

    Personally, it's not how I can't do that.

    803

    01:12:57,520 --> 01:13:04,520

    So I have to take the plus one so I can rely on my friend, my mum, my family member.

    804

    01:13:04,520 --> 01:13:06,520

    And then people say, what does that plus one do?

    805

    01:13:06,520 --> 01:13:11,520

    Well, that plus one makes sure that I get up in the morning and I can get to qualification.

    806

    01:13:11,520 --> 01:13:16,520

    I always leave my crutches in the wrong place and they're always running around getting them for me.

    807

    01:13:16,520 --> 01:13:21,520

    I come off the wall and I can't physically breathe or walk and my mouth gets really dry.

    808

    01:13:21,520 --> 01:13:24,520

    So then I need my crutches and my drink after the qualification.

    809

    01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:30,520

    And then someone has to come and collect me for qualification too, because I've completely brain fogged out

    810

    01:13:30,520 --> 01:13:33,520

    and I don't know what time I'm supposed to be aware.

    811

    01:13:33,520 --> 01:13:40,520

    And we only have volunteers at the team level.

    812

    01:13:40,520 --> 01:13:46,520

    And without those volunteers, we wouldn't basically have a support mechanism in the federation.

    813

    01:13:46,520 --> 01:13:50,520

    So we're totally driven by volunteers and stuff at the moment.

    814

    01:13:50,520 --> 01:13:58,520

    Anita, do you have a para coach or para trainer on UK level?

    815

    01:13:58,520 --> 01:14:02,520

    They're all volunteers. I've just checked the GB website.

    816

    01:14:02,520 --> 01:14:08,520

    And lovely Zoe, who you interviewed, volunteers for the para climbing at the nationals level.

    817

    01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:11,520

    She volunteers to support a time for us.

    818

    01:14:11,520 --> 01:14:18,520

    And then we've got Jay, Jamie and Jamie, see my brain fogs kicked in.

    819

    01:14:18,520 --> 01:14:21,520

    We've got three coaches. It's all voluntary.

    820

    01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:27,520

    So yeah, without them, we wouldn't even have site guides because our site guides are our coaches,

    821

    01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:29,520

    are the ones that are married.

    822

    01:14:29,520 --> 01:14:33,520

    So that's a whole other discipline when you're looking at a visually impaired person.

    823

    01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:38,520

    I'm not visually impaired, but I'm also not in a wheelchair.

    824

    01:14:38,520 --> 01:14:42,520

    I struggle to pull a suitcase around the airport because I've got crutches.

    825

    01:14:42,520 --> 01:14:46,520

    I need the aid to pull my luggage around.

    826

    01:14:46,520 --> 01:14:52,520

    But if I wasn't visually impaired, I'd have to train a site guide or bring a friend that I climb with

    827

    01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:56,520

    on an everyday basis to compete at an international competition.

    828

    01:14:56,520 --> 01:15:03,520

    And you also have to consider that that site guide needs to be able to climb a 6C or above himself or herself

    829

    01:15:03,520 --> 01:15:09,520

    to be able to site guide that person up those kind of holes that we climb.

    830

    01:15:09,520 --> 01:15:17,520

    So the support mechanism around us is bigger than you think it is when you're looking at paragliding.

    831

    01:15:17,520 --> 01:15:22,520

    And we've got people on our team that physically can't even get themselves to the World Cups.

    832

    01:15:22,520 --> 01:15:25,520

    They're on the team, but they can't afford to come to a World Cup.

    833

    01:15:25,520 --> 01:15:28,520

    And if they don't go to the World Cup, they can't get classified.

    834

    01:15:28,520 --> 01:15:31,520

    And if they don't get classified, they can't compete.

    835

    01:15:31,520 --> 01:15:34,520

    And you can do all of that and then get told you're not.

    836

    01:15:34,520 --> 01:15:41,520

    So fingers crossed we get in the Paralympics and then hopefully funding comes our way

    837

    01:15:41,520 --> 01:15:48,520

    because it's all riding on this 2028 decision in March now, I think it's moved again.

    838

    01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:55,520

    Right. Yeah, I heard. And yeah, Chris, different experience for you or similar in terms of funding?

    839

    01:15:55,520 --> 01:16:00,520

    In terms of funding, well, like I said, I did think we have quite a good position in the Netherlands

    840

    01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:05,520

    because we get some funding from the Federation and I don't need to bring someone with me.

    841

    01:16:05,520 --> 01:16:07,520

    Yeah, we usually share accommodations.

    842

    01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:10,520

    So we just look at accommodation and transport together.

    843

    01:16:10,520 --> 01:16:14,520

    But we're a really small team. We're only three people at the moment plus a coach.

    844

    01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:18,520

    And then one of my teammates brings someone with her.

    845

    01:16:18,520 --> 01:16:21,520

    So usually we're five people at the competition.

    846

    01:16:21,520 --> 01:16:25,520

    And that's a small enough number that you can share everything, share accommodation.

    847

    01:16:25,520 --> 01:16:28,520

    So I don't think I have much to add there.

    848

    01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:34,520

    Specifically, Chris, with you and your story, I think several times throughout this podcast,

    849

    01:16:34,520 --> 01:16:42,520

    as well as during our pre-interview, you kind of mentioned that you don't really feel qualified to do the interview

    850

    01:16:42,520 --> 01:16:49,520

    or maybe you feel like a bit of imposter syndrome with like your impairments.

    851

    01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:53,520

    Can you explain why you feel that way?

    852

    01:16:53,520 --> 01:16:59,520

    Or like, do you ever feel judgment from the para community for not being as impaired?

    853

    01:16:59,520 --> 01:17:03,520

    Yeah, sure. Well, judgment, no, for sure not.

    854

    01:17:03,520 --> 01:17:06,520

    The community is very open and welcoming.

    855

    01:17:06,520 --> 01:17:08,520

    People have definitely asked, well, what's your impairment?

    856

    01:17:08,520 --> 01:17:10,520

    Because I don't see anything where to see you climb.

    857

    01:17:10,520 --> 01:17:12,520

    But actually, I really appreciate it.

    858

    01:17:12,520 --> 01:17:17,520

    Some people just ask within the community or just in daily life.

    859

    01:17:17,520 --> 01:17:26,520

    But yeah, like, I feel like I sort of have to emphasize that I am not really impaired in daily life.

    860

    01:17:26,520 --> 01:17:28,520

    And that's why we talked about doing the podcast.

    861

    01:17:28,520 --> 01:17:31,520

    I sort of wondered, am I the right person to do this?

    862

    01:17:31,520 --> 01:17:37,520

    Can I speak for this community and for people with an impairment?

    863

    01:17:37,520 --> 01:17:39,520

    Because I didn't feel like I could maybe.

    864

    01:17:39,520 --> 01:17:46,520

    But then I was talking to a German athlete who is in 82, so she's missing her forearm.

    865

    01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:50,520

    And I told her, could I be in the podcast? Could I do that?

    866

    01:17:50,520 --> 01:17:55,520

    And then she said, well, I don't think I could represent the community because I'm only missing an arm.

    867

    01:17:55,520 --> 01:17:58,520

    I don't know what it's like to be in a wheelchair or to live with a mess.

    868

    01:17:58,520 --> 01:18:04,520

    If you're missing an arm, you feel like you cannot represent the community, then I'll do the podcast.

    869

    01:18:04,520 --> 01:18:06,520

    Because apparently everyone feels that way.

    870

    01:18:06,520 --> 01:18:07,520

    Yeah, absolutely.

    871

    01:18:07,520 --> 01:18:12,520

    And I mean, yeah, you definitely have an important part of the story as well.

    872

    01:18:12,520 --> 01:18:21,520

    I mean, especially when people can't like visually, when it's not visually obvious what kind of disability or impairment you have.

    873

    01:18:21,520 --> 01:18:26,520

    I feel like that's also its own experience that is important to hear about.

    874

    01:18:26,520 --> 01:18:28,520

    Sure. Yeah, yeah. Thank you.

    875

    01:18:28,520 --> 01:18:36,520

    Yeah, that's what I when you contacted us and asked us to do the podcast, it's nice to be able to explain our situations.

    876

    01:18:36,520 --> 01:18:42,520

    Because on a daily basis, I look like an able-bodied person.

    877

    01:18:42,520 --> 01:18:48,520

    And as soon as my social media goes quiet and as soon as you don't see me in the climbing wall, there's something wrong.

    878

    01:18:48,520 --> 01:18:51,520

    There's health issues behind it.

    879

    01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:58,520

    And then as soon as I'm fit again, I'm spamming on my social media and I'm doing as much climbing as I can.

    880

    01:18:58,520 --> 01:19:07,520

    But I'd love to be able to, I don't want to, obviously, but I'd love to be able to fly into Salt Lake City to compete.

    881

    01:19:07,520 --> 01:19:09,520

    Can't financially afford it.

    882

    01:19:09,520 --> 01:19:19,520

    And my condition doesn't give me time to recover from the jet lag and the physical fatiguing of the travel to be able to fly in the day before competing fly out.

    883

    01:19:19,520 --> 01:19:23,520

    So I have to acclimatize and build that in.

    884

    01:19:23,520 --> 01:19:29,520

    So travel for me is lucky that we're in Europe and all the comps are in Europe.

    885

    01:19:29,520 --> 01:19:39,520

    If I was in your neck of the woods without the financial backing and support of the USA, they've got a brilliant team and a brilliant setup.

    886

    01:19:39,520 --> 01:19:45,520

    It's so hard to be able to come that far over to where we are.

    887

    01:19:45,520 --> 01:19:51,520

    But then again, I'd like quite like to be in Holland and just be able to get on the night train and just zip off to a different country.

    888

    01:19:51,520 --> 01:20:00,520

    Whereas we've got a bit of water to deal with, so we have to put in planes or long environmental car transport.

    889

    01:20:00,520 --> 01:20:05,520

    So it's different for everybody.

    890

    01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:07,520

    I wouldn't change it for the world.

    891

    01:20:07,520 --> 01:20:10,520

    I think it's a brilliant sport.

    892

    01:20:10,520 --> 01:20:15,520

    And the weird thing is that we all are just climbers.

    893

    01:20:15,520 --> 01:20:19,520

    We all train on the same routes that you would train in a climbing wall.

    894

    01:20:19,520 --> 01:20:25,520

    We'd all climb on the same holds and the styles of routes that you would climb, Ginny.

    895

    01:20:25,520 --> 01:20:31,520

    And then it's only when we turn it to a World Cup have they set something that works or tries to work for our own impairment.

    896

    01:20:31,520 --> 01:20:37,520

    That's the only opportunity we get to climb a route that's been set for us, which is one of the reasons I do it,

    897

    01:20:37,520 --> 01:20:41,520

    because I'm like, I wonder if I can really climb that level.

    898

    01:20:41,520 --> 01:20:47,520

    Because I don't know what you think, Chris, but you climb a, I don't know, let's just take an easy grade.

    899

    01:20:47,520 --> 01:20:51,520

    You climb a 6A indoors at your local wall and you leap climb it.

    900

    01:20:51,520 --> 01:20:55,520

    And then you go and climb a 6A in a World Cup or World Champs.

    901

    01:20:55,520 --> 01:20:56,520

    Are they the same?

    902

    01:20:56,520 --> 01:20:58,520

    Because they make us move around?

    903

    01:20:58,520 --> 01:21:00,520

    Well, I don't think they are the same.

    904

    01:21:00,520 --> 01:21:06,520

    If I climb indoors on a normal top rope and I climb it, it's straight up and down.

    905

    01:21:06,520 --> 01:21:12,520

    And I think, oh, I can climb a 6A, turn up at a World Cup, completely different style of setting.

    906

    01:21:12,520 --> 01:21:15,520

    And I'm like, this is so much harder.

    907

    01:21:15,520 --> 01:21:22,520

    It's not a grade you can actually grade because we go sideways and we go up and round corners, just like the seniors do.

    908

    01:21:22,520 --> 01:21:25,520

    I don't know how they can grade it, but it's more fun.

    909

    01:21:25,520 --> 01:21:28,520

    I think World Cups are more fun when the ropes are.

    910

    01:21:28,520 --> 01:21:29,520

    Yeah, the routes are really specific.

    911

    01:21:29,520 --> 01:21:37,520

    I mean, anyone could just go onto YouTube and type, I don't know, FSC power climbing 2023 or something and find a competition

    912

    01:21:37,520 --> 01:21:41,520

    and just look at the routes and watch some categories and see how everyone climbs.

    913

    01:21:41,520 --> 01:21:45,520

    I think it's really interesting part of the sport if you're not so value-wasted.

    914

    01:21:45,520 --> 01:21:56,520

    Yeah, I guess comparing routes they set at pair climbing in the IFSC compared to what you find at your local gyms.

    915

    01:21:56,520 --> 01:21:59,520

    I mean, I'm assuming there are huge differences.

    916

    01:21:59,520 --> 01:22:05,520

    Well, in general, the level really increases during the route.

    917

    01:22:05,520 --> 01:22:10,520

    So it might start out really easy because they don't want people to fall over beyond the session because it's so pro

    918

    01:22:10,520 --> 01:22:12,520

    and you might hit the ground.

    919

    01:22:12,520 --> 01:22:19,520

    So it might increase from like a 5C to a 7B, which is really like every move just gets harder and harder.

    920

    01:22:19,520 --> 01:22:23,520

    You're like, oh, it's still doable. It's really hard. It's really hard.

    921

    01:22:23,520 --> 01:22:26,520

    Just keep increasing like that.

    922

    01:22:26,520 --> 01:22:29,520

    In general, there are more holds.

    923

    01:22:29,520 --> 01:22:40,520

    So in a regular competition, the hold before it's up is 43, 44, and with us might be 60 holds on the wall.

    924

    01:22:40,520 --> 01:22:45,520

    For the blind categories and for people with arm infusions in general, they don't set dinos.

    925

    01:22:45,520 --> 01:22:48,520

    They want to be in static everything. So the holds are quite close.

    926

    01:22:48,520 --> 01:22:57,520

    Yeah, I guess I'm actually wondering if it might feel easier because it's set more specifically for people who have certain impairments.

    927

    01:22:57,520 --> 01:23:01,520

    For me, it feels easier. It's interesting to hear that it feels harder for you than it is for you.

    928

    01:23:01,520 --> 01:23:03,520

    Yeah, I mean, that's the thing.

    929

    01:23:03,520 --> 01:23:10,520

    I mean, we're in the same sports class, but we have different styles of climbing.

    930

    01:23:10,520 --> 01:23:13,520

    And I'm the same as everybody else.

    931

    01:23:13,520 --> 01:23:20,520

    I think when I go and look at people that are climbing in a competition and see them on YouTube, I'm like, what is their impairment?

    932

    01:23:20,520 --> 01:23:23,520

    I'm quite interested to learn about their impairments.

    933

    01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:30,520

    So when you understand somebody's impairment, you can kind of then spot it.

    934

    01:23:30,520 --> 01:23:40,520

    So I do find that it's purely my ability to climb for that number of consecutive days.

    935

    01:23:40,520 --> 01:23:44,520

    Because if I go to the local wall, I only climb every other day.

    936

    01:23:44,520 --> 01:23:47,520

    Right now, I climb every other day. I went climbing yesterday.

    937

    01:23:47,520 --> 01:23:55,520

    I got nothing left in me today to either physically drive a car or walk down the street and get a bottle of milk.

    938

    01:23:55,520 --> 01:24:00,520

    So I've got to save all my energy today just so I can go climbing again next day.

    939

    01:24:00,520 --> 01:24:02,520

    So I can choose when and where to climb.

    940

    01:24:02,520 --> 01:24:10,520

    But competition-wise, this time on this day with the classification and the qualifications

    941

    01:24:10,520 --> 01:24:20,520

    and as much sightseeing as you want to do at the country that you've gone to and the physical, getting there, it compounds really badly for me.

    942

    01:24:20,520 --> 01:24:32,520

    Whereas if they have a World Cup in the UK, yay, I'll be a lot stronger and a lot more fitter because I haven't had to travel to do it.

    943

    01:24:32,520 --> 01:24:42,520

    But it's the whole thing, getting there, traveling, seeing the athletes, seeing another country, having some sunshine.

    944

    01:24:42,520 --> 01:24:47,520

    It's raining a lot here at the moment. No snow though. I want some snow.

    945

    01:24:47,520 --> 01:24:57,520

    But it's the whole thing. Like literally the whole thing and however long it is, it is why it depends on how well I do.

    946

    01:24:57,520 --> 01:25:05,520

    It's fun to tell. In my first year of competing, it was in 2021, I did two World Cups and I placed second and first.

    947

    01:25:05,520 --> 01:25:07,520

    I was completely overwhelmed by it all.

    948

    01:25:07,520 --> 01:25:11,520

    And I was just so new to the sport and the community and everything.

    949

    01:25:11,520 --> 01:25:15,520

    And then I won a gold medal in the Grand Sons.

    950

    01:25:15,520 --> 01:25:20,520

    And then I was just standing there completely super happy, overwhelmed, everything.

    951

    01:25:20,520 --> 01:25:24,520

    Then they just tapped me on my shirt like, hey, you've got to come for your interview.

    952

    01:25:24,520 --> 01:25:27,520

    My what? Your interview with my group.

    953

    01:25:27,520 --> 01:25:35,520

    Yes. I was just completely like my face is red and I'm like, I don't know, everything's overwhelmed by me.

    954

    01:25:35,520 --> 01:25:40,520

    And then he's asking questions and I'm just standing there like, I'm talking to my group.

    955

    01:25:40,520 --> 01:25:45,520

    Yeah, it's really super lucky to be able to compete.

    956

    01:25:45,520 --> 01:25:53,520

    That's really amazing. That's a very, very good point because I'm really big on advocating for the sport.

    957

    01:25:53,520 --> 01:25:59,520

    So at the end of every one of our sports classes, if you win,

    958

    01:25:59,520 --> 01:26:04,520

    because it's live stream and the IFC and Matt Groome are there and then live streaming it live on YouTube,

    959

    01:26:04,520 --> 01:26:09,520

    what they do is they then interview the person that won.

    960

    01:26:09,520 --> 01:26:12,520

    What you don't see is you don't see it on the live stream.

    961

    01:26:12,520 --> 01:26:18,520

    So we actually don't know what anybody said and where all of those interviews have gone because I would love to see them.

    962

    01:26:18,520 --> 01:26:20,520

    Sometimes they do.

    963

    01:26:20,520 --> 01:26:23,520

    Yeah, not all of them though. Do you know what I like to do?

    964

    01:26:23,520 --> 01:26:29,520

    Yeah, not always because we've seen them in the past

    965

    01:26:29,520 --> 01:26:35,520

    because you only get in the live stream from the front and then they'll run off and do the interviews.

    966

    01:26:35,520 --> 01:26:40,520

    But yeah, it'd be good to see some of those interviews, I think,

    967

    01:26:40,520 --> 01:26:45,520

    even if it was just a load of them put together and it was like five minutes, not six hours.

    968

    01:26:45,520 --> 01:26:48,520

    And you're trying to find that person at the end of it.

    969

    01:26:48,520 --> 01:26:54,520

    Because as soon as you finish your final, the next final is out, so Matt Groome's live streaming the next final.

    970

    01:26:54,520 --> 01:26:58,520

    As soon as that final is finished, the next final is out and Matt streams that final as well.

    971

    01:26:58,520 --> 01:27:01,520

    Can we also say how amazing Matt Groome is?

    972

    01:27:01,520 --> 01:27:07,520

    Before he used to go around isolation with a pen and paper and write down everyone's names phonetically

    973

    01:27:07,520 --> 01:27:09,520

    so he could pronounce the name correctly.

    974

    01:27:09,520 --> 01:27:13,520

    I'm always finding girls, he's amazing. He's a really good commentator.

    975

    01:27:13,520 --> 01:27:16,520

    And it's also really cool, I think, that he's doing both the regular and the paraclony.

    976

    01:27:16,520 --> 01:27:21,520

    Glad you've had a good experience there. He definitely shouts out paraclimbing quite a bit.

    977

    01:27:21,520 --> 01:27:23,520

    Yeah, yeah.

    978

    01:27:23,520 --> 01:27:30,520

    It's good when we get him on the wall and he's trying a route that's been set for one of the finals.

    979

    01:27:30,520 --> 01:27:35,520

    Yeah, I think he tried one of the routes. He tried with a blindfold or with one leg or one arm.

    980

    01:27:35,520 --> 01:27:37,520

    So difficult.

    981

    01:27:37,520 --> 01:27:43,520

    I mean, I would love to try it. It sounds fun, but really hard.

    982

    01:27:43,520 --> 01:27:47,520

    Well, he came and grabbed me and Burn, which I was not prepared for.

    983

    01:27:47,520 --> 01:27:53,520

    So in Burn on the para finals, he came and grabbed me and I did some of the commentary for it at the beginning.

    984

    01:27:53,520 --> 01:27:57,520

    And that's the first time I've been invited to do it live there and then.

    985

    01:27:57,520 --> 01:28:02,520

    And his job is so difficult because you can't say certain things and you can't swear.

    986

    01:28:02,520 --> 01:28:12,520

    And in our case, just like Chris said earlier, is you can't divulge information that's not globally okay to divulge.

    987

    01:28:12,520 --> 01:28:21,520

    So even though we might know people's conditions, you can't just blur out this person's condition if they don't want it to be broadcast.

    988

    01:28:21,520 --> 01:28:25,520

    So there's a lot of extra implications behind broadcasting.

    989

    01:28:25,520 --> 01:28:30,520

    But it was amazing and scary at the same time because I was playing spot the difference on different climates.

    990

    01:28:30,520 --> 01:28:35,520

    And you never know what the audience wants to listen to in para planning.

    991

    01:28:35,520 --> 01:28:41,520

    Well, I'm glad you had a good experience and yeah, more mac room talk.

    992

    01:28:41,520 --> 01:28:46,520

    But back to back to you guys specifically.

    993

    01:28:46,520 --> 01:29:07,520

    I think, Anita, with your personal experience being an older competitor, you I think you had mentioned you were the one that Zoe was talking about in the previous podcast episode where you have like dealt with going through menopause and competing at the same time.

    994

    01:29:07,520 --> 01:29:10,520

    I'm just so curious to know what that's like.

    995

    01:29:10,520 --> 01:29:12,520

    So would I, to be honest.

    996

    01:29:12,520 --> 01:29:14,520

    And that's that's not really a joke.

    997

    01:29:14,520 --> 01:29:19,520

    So on our team, we have some males and females that are over 50.

    998

    01:29:19,520 --> 01:29:22,520

    I think our oldest competitors, 56 or 57.

    999

    01:29:22,520 --> 01:29:31,520

    I think the only benefit to get in MS is I don't know I've been through the menopause because it's the same sort of bodily issues.

    1000

    01:29:31,520 --> 01:29:43,520

    So I must have been through the menopause, but I don't have any difference in my body from when I was 20 or 30 or 40 years old.

    1001

    01:29:43,520 --> 01:29:46,520

    I just like so.

    1002

    01:29:46,520 --> 01:29:52,520

    And because of my multiple sclerosis, I've got no temperature control in my body.

    1003

    01:29:52,520 --> 01:29:55,520

    My body just decides to overheat and underneath.

    1004

    01:29:55,520 --> 01:30:02,520

    So I wouldn't be able to tell you if I did or didn't go through the menopause.

    1005

    01:30:02,520 --> 01:30:09,520

    I think in general, with being an older competitor, do you feel much different from when you were climbing when you were younger?

    1006

    01:30:09,520 --> 01:30:12,520

    Up until the last two years, I probably would have said no.

    1007

    01:30:12,520 --> 01:30:18,520

    But I've had two years of health issues that I wasn't expecting.

    1008

    01:30:18,520 --> 01:30:29,520

    And I jokingly say I've shrank by about three inches because I got older and I feel a lot shorter than I was when I was climbing in 2017.

    1009

    01:30:29,520 --> 01:30:33,520

    So either that or they keep putting the holds further away and I can't reach them.

    1010

    01:30:33,520 --> 01:30:45,520

    From a training point of view, I do struggle a lot more to live my life and be able to train to the degree I did back in 2017.

    1011

    01:30:45,520 --> 01:30:57,520

    And then I have what I really like about paragliding is I think my youngest competitor was actually Rosalie in the Dutch Nationals in 2019.

    1012

    01:30:57,520 --> 01:31:00,520

    She was like 15 years old or something.

    1013

    01:31:00,520 --> 01:31:04,520

    And I was like, oh, my God. And she whooped me, absolutely whooped me.

    1014

    01:31:04,520 --> 01:31:09,520

    And I was like, yeah, but you're at least 30 years older than I am.

    1015

    01:31:09,520 --> 01:31:13,520

    You can't compare yourself against somebody who's younger than you.

    1016

    01:31:13,520 --> 01:31:17,520

    So it's not really the age that impairs at paragliding.

    1017

    01:31:17,520 --> 01:31:20,520

    It's the disability.

    1018

    01:31:20,520 --> 01:31:27,520

    So personally, yeah, I think everybody will still be climbing at 50 if they choose to climb at 50 or more.

    1019

    01:31:27,520 --> 01:31:36,520

    And from growing the sport and identifying more people, I think more people break themselves through health issues over and later in life.

    1020

    01:31:36,520 --> 01:31:44,520

    It's only a good thing from my point of view because I don't think there's any other sport I can think of, although I've not researched them,

    1021

    01:31:44,520 --> 01:31:49,520

    where we can all climb as well as each other.

    1022

    01:31:49,520 --> 01:31:56,520

    And however we deal with our own impairment and the challenge of that route depends on how well we get up the wall.

    1023

    01:31:56,520 --> 01:32:01,520

    Our age isn't really an issue because I don't know how you understand it, Chris,

    1024

    01:32:01,520 --> 01:32:06,520

    but it's our strength and our ability to climb on the wall that keeps us there.

    1025

    01:32:06,520 --> 01:32:11,520

    So yeah, I think kind of have some more 50 year olds piece.

    1026

    01:32:11,520 --> 01:32:20,520

    But I think from going to competitions and getting involved and talking to people and being a chatterbox

    1027

    01:32:20,520 --> 01:32:25,520

    and not caring about what people say is just life experience and being a lot older.

    1028

    01:32:25,520 --> 01:32:30,520

    When I was in my 20s and 30s, I was shy. I wouldn't speak to anybody.

    1029

    01:32:30,520 --> 01:32:33,520

    I found it really hard to communicate in large groups.

    1030

    01:32:33,520 --> 01:32:38,520

    I'm still doing to this day, I'm a very one to one type person. I struggle with large groups.

    1031

    01:32:38,520 --> 01:32:46,520

    But generally, I don't find it hard to talk to people nowadays.

    1032

    01:32:46,520 --> 01:32:56,520

    I mean, it's inspiring to see. I think I'm still definitely younger, but I really am scared of getting older.

    1033

    01:32:56,520 --> 01:33:04,520

    So it's nice to see people who can continue climbing as they age.

    1034

    01:33:04,520 --> 01:33:10,520

    I think generally you just live your life. Physically, I feel as...

    1035

    01:33:10,520 --> 01:33:13,520

    So there's a difference between your body itself and your brain.

    1036

    01:33:13,520 --> 01:33:18,520

    Mentally, I feel exactly the same as when I was 20 and when I was 30 and when I was 40.

    1037

    01:33:18,520 --> 01:33:22,520

    Physically wise, I don't feel any different.

    1038

    01:33:22,520 --> 01:33:29,520

    Mental wise, I'm more mature in my head and I have more empathy and sympathy for people

    1039

    01:33:29,520 --> 01:33:34,520

    because I've been through lots of experiences. I remember when I was like that.

    1040

    01:33:34,520 --> 01:33:42,520

    And I think the only difference with getting older is how much you experience life and how much you can draw from it.

    1041

    01:33:42,520 --> 01:33:46,520

    But physically, your brain will always think you're 20 years old and you're always as fit.

    1042

    01:33:46,520 --> 01:33:49,520

    This is why I'm struggling over the last few years.

    1043

    01:33:49,520 --> 01:33:53,520

    I used to be able to do this. Why can't I do it now? My body's changed.

    1044

    01:33:53,520 --> 01:34:01,520

    I can't control what my body does. I can just utilise what it is at that point in that year.

    1045

    01:34:01,520 --> 01:34:05,520

    And that's why power climbing is brilliant because we're all broken anyway.

    1046

    01:34:05,520 --> 01:34:09,520

    We're just broken a bit more or less for one year to the next.

    1047

    01:34:09,520 --> 01:34:15,520

    Yeah. In general, what I really like about power climbing is that you have to get really good in your strength.

    1048

    01:34:15,520 --> 01:34:21,520

    You have to really lean into your strengths to sort of compensate maybe for your impairments.

    1049

    01:34:21,520 --> 01:34:26,520

    And I think there are a lot of climbers who are almost a bit afraid to train what they're good at.

    1050

    01:34:26,520 --> 01:34:28,520

    Everyone's like, oh, train your weakness.

    1051

    01:34:28,520 --> 01:34:33,520

    But I think with power climbing, there are things that you're physically not able to do.

    1052

    01:34:33,520 --> 01:34:39,520

    So you might as well be really good at your strong points to compensate for the rest of your body, basically.

    1053

    01:34:39,520 --> 01:34:41,520

    So that's what I really like.

    1054

    01:34:41,520 --> 01:34:49,520

    And people with really weak muscles might have incredible technique and people that miss a leg very cordially is insane.

    1055

    01:34:49,520 --> 01:34:51,520

    And that's what makes it really cool to watch as well.

    1056

    01:34:51,520 --> 01:34:56,520

    Yeah. Yeah, that makes sense. Cool. Yeah.

    1057

    01:34:56,520 --> 01:35:08,520

    So I think looking forward to the future, I think we were hoping to hear back about the Paralympics in 2028, but they did not.

    1058

    01:35:08,520 --> 01:35:09,520

    They pushed that back.

    1059

    01:35:09,520 --> 01:35:12,520

    Yes, I think they've pushed it back to March now.

    1060

    01:35:12,520 --> 01:35:14,520

    Well, yeah, I was hoping we would find out by now.

    1061

    01:35:14,520 --> 01:35:19,520

    But okay, we'll have to check back in March.

    1062

    01:35:19,520 --> 01:35:28,520

    I was going to say, I'm not sure even if they go in, I think, unfortunately, I'm not sure our category would be in.

    1063

    01:35:28,520 --> 01:35:30,520

    But if they do, it'd be good to interview people.

    1064

    01:35:30,520 --> 01:35:31,520

    I don't think so.

    1065

    01:35:31,520 --> 01:35:38,520

    The biggest category with the most athletes in is the most obvious because you want as many athletes.

    1066

    01:35:38,520 --> 01:35:46,520

    So when you think about Paralympics, what is the biggest category with the most athletes in that's visually disabled?

    1067

    01:35:46,520 --> 01:35:49,520

    We can still compete at IFSC level, and I think I will.

    1068

    01:35:49,520 --> 01:35:55,520

    But at least we don't have to worry about the Olympics in that sense.

    1069

    01:35:55,520 --> 01:36:00,520

    No, if it becomes Paralympic, I don't think at least RP3 won't be in there.

    1070

    01:36:00,520 --> 01:36:08,520

    That's what I think because the IPC, International Paralympic Committee, has expressed that they prefer visual impairments.

    1071

    01:36:08,520 --> 01:36:10,520

    And that I mean impairments that you can see.

    1072

    01:36:10,520 --> 01:36:11,520

    So you can see what someone has.

    1073

    01:36:11,520 --> 01:36:16,520

    So it probably means people with an amputation or visual disabilities.

    1074

    01:36:16,520 --> 01:36:20,520

    I'm not sure if RP will be in there.

    1075

    01:36:20,520 --> 01:36:24,520

    But I do think we can be sure that they will not give us 10 medals for all the categories.

    1076

    01:36:24,520 --> 01:36:25,520

    That won't happen.

    1077

    01:36:25,520 --> 01:36:27,520

    So they have to make a decision somewhere.

    1078

    01:36:27,520 --> 01:36:28,520

    We'll see.

    1079

    01:36:28,520 --> 01:36:30,520

    We'll see how it goes.

    1080

    01:36:30,520 --> 01:36:38,520

    Any like guess as to like which categories or like how many medals that they'll award?

    1081

    01:36:38,520 --> 01:36:42,520

    It's I think we all are debating it.

    1082

    01:36:42,520 --> 01:36:47,520

    I think what we can say is everybody has their own opinion.

    1083

    01:36:47,520 --> 01:36:55,520

    But the only thing my logic says is it's got to have a lot of athletes.

    1084

    01:36:55,520 --> 01:37:10,520

    And I would assume, I'm just assuming here, don't take me granted, that they have to have the male and female equivalent of that sports class to make it fair for a show event.

    1085

    01:37:10,520 --> 01:37:19,520

    So now what sports class, we're called sports class, not categories, has a lot of male and females in it.

    1086

    01:37:19,520 --> 01:37:22,520

    It's visually inspiring to watch as a show sport.

    1087

    01:37:22,520 --> 01:37:25,520

    Remember it's just a show sport for getting.

    1088

    01:37:25,520 --> 01:37:27,520

    If you could have a guess, what would you say, Jimmy?

    1089

    01:37:27,520 --> 01:37:29,520

    Put the owners back on you.

    1090

    01:37:29,520 --> 01:37:34,520

    What do you know now and what has the biggest category, male and female?

    1091

    01:37:34,520 --> 01:37:41,520

    Well, I mean, you mentioned that there's not many females in the amputee sports class.

    1092

    01:37:41,520 --> 01:37:43,520

    Not when I first started.

    1093

    01:37:43,520 --> 01:37:44,520

    It's changed now.

    1094

    01:37:44,520 --> 01:37:45,520

    Not when I first started.

    1095

    01:37:45,520 --> 01:37:53,520

    I would think that the showiest class would probably be like the amputee category.

    1096

    01:37:53,520 --> 01:37:55,520

    I wouldn't be far off.

    1097

    01:37:55,520 --> 01:38:07,520

    But then again, that's the great thing about doing this as well, is we've got, if they don't get into 2028 and they get into 2032, even if they did have my category, I'm not competing at 60, I don't think.

    1098

    01:38:07,520 --> 01:38:08,520

    They won't have my category.

    1099

    01:38:08,520 --> 01:38:12,520

    But it gives us so much more time to find more people to build.

    1100

    01:38:12,520 --> 01:38:16,520

    And that's that having said that, that's quite strange, isn't it?

    1101

    01:38:16,520 --> 01:38:25,520

    Are they going to pick a category in March based on the current level of athletes, especially since like the sport is still small and still growing so fast?

    1102

    01:38:25,520 --> 01:38:30,520

    A lot changes in five, eight years.

    1103

    01:38:30,520 --> 01:38:32,520

    Yeah, it's a long time.

    1104

    01:38:32,520 --> 01:38:33,520

    Yeah.

    1105

    01:38:33,520 --> 01:38:39,520

    How do you think inclusion in the Olympics would change Paraclimbing?

    1106

    01:38:39,520 --> 01:38:46,520

    From what I know, we do have a transgender policy.

    1107

    01:38:46,520 --> 01:38:55,520

    There is a policy in place that says how the LGBT community can be involved within the competition scene.

    1108

    01:38:55,520 --> 01:39:00,520

    I know from a LGBT national's point of view, we have a policy as well.

    1109

    01:39:00,520 --> 01:39:08,520

    So we have a system in place for non-binaries and transgenders.

    1110

    01:39:08,520 --> 01:39:15,520

    The only thing I've seen lately is something the Americans were talking about.

    1111

    01:39:15,520 --> 01:39:19,520

    I think they've changed their policy and that's created a bit of an uproar at the moment.

    1112

    01:39:19,520 --> 01:39:30,520

    And without saying anything, I didn't know a transgender competed in Bern at our World Championships.

    1113

    01:39:30,520 --> 01:39:31,520

    I think it's brilliant.

    1114

    01:39:31,520 --> 01:39:41,520

    I think the fact that we can have anybody, any discipline, any transgender in our competitions, I think it's really good because it's for diversity and inclusivity.

    1115

    01:39:41,520 --> 01:39:50,520

    It's showing that the sport is really young and we're still taking advantage of these issues around who can and can't compete.

    1116

    01:39:50,520 --> 01:39:51,520

    Yeah, it's hard about Olympics.

    1117

    01:39:51,520 --> 01:39:53,520

    I know it's hard to tell how it will change.

    1118

    01:39:53,520 --> 01:40:02,520

    For sure, there will be a lot more exposure for the sport, but I don't know what the implications of that will be.

    1119

    01:40:02,520 --> 01:40:11,520

    I mean, of course, you're hoping that all countries would get more funding and just to be even more equal to regular competition climbing.

    1120

    01:40:11,520 --> 01:40:12,520

    But I don't know.

    1121

    01:40:12,520 --> 01:40:16,520

    We'll see what happens if it happens.

    1122

    01:40:16,520 --> 01:40:23,520

    But in 2028, I mean, I'll be 33 by then. Yeah, I can compete.

    1123

    01:40:23,520 --> 01:40:25,520

    Yeah, she's actually young.

    1124

    01:40:25,520 --> 01:40:27,520

    I hope it goes through.

    1125

    01:40:27,520 --> 01:40:31,520

    I hope to see you compete, Chris, at least, maybe.

    1126

    01:40:31,520 --> 01:40:33,520

    Thank you.

    1127

    01:40:33,520 --> 01:40:37,520

    But I mean, yeah, hopefully it would all be positive things, right?

    1128

    01:40:37,520 --> 01:40:42,520

    If it got included, maybe more funding, just more exposure in general.

    1129

    01:40:42,520 --> 01:40:53,520

    I think it triggers a lot more federation funding and a lot more, I think, visibility wise, it'd be good to get us more on social media and live streams.

    1130

    01:40:53,520 --> 01:41:02,520

    I think at the moment being trapped into the YouTube system means we don't get as much publicity as the seniors do.

    1131

    01:41:02,520 --> 01:41:05,520

    So it can only get a lot better.

    1132

    01:41:05,520 --> 01:41:11,520

    The fact that we're even being considered as amazing compared to all the other sports.

    1133

    01:41:11,520 --> 01:41:15,520

    They don't show it on Eurosport, the Paraclimbing portion.

    1134

    01:41:15,520 --> 01:41:18,520

    So if you missed a few live streams, what's Paraclimbing?

    1135

    01:41:18,520 --> 01:41:22,520

    Yes, it's all on YouTube, IFC. Just type in Paraclimbing, you can see everything.

    1136

    01:41:22,520 --> 01:41:29,520

    OK. Any final thoughts before we go into some quick Discord questions from the audience?

    1137

    01:41:29,520 --> 01:41:32,520

    Actually, I think we covered most things.

    1138

    01:41:32,520 --> 01:41:35,520

    Yeah, we'll just get into a few of these questions then.

    1139

    01:41:35,520 --> 01:41:39,520

    So the first one was, are there any para athletes who do speed?

    1140

    01:41:39,520 --> 01:41:46,520

    There are no speed competitions as far as I know. I think everyone, when you find the speed, well, somewhere we just tried it out.

    1141

    01:41:46,520 --> 01:41:53,520

    I had a friendly speed competition, someone from my sports class in Bern, but there are no competitions.

    1142

    01:41:53,520 --> 01:41:55,520

    I don't know of any either.

    1143

    01:41:55,520 --> 01:41:59,520

    So have either of you tried it? So you've tried it. Anita, have you tried it?

    1144

    01:41:59,520 --> 01:42:03,520

    I think I have. 42 seconds or something.

    1145

    01:42:03,520 --> 01:42:06,520

    Honestly, I think I tried it.

    1146

    01:42:06,520 --> 01:42:12,520

    I think I tried it 2017 or 2018 and it was about 47 seconds.

    1147

    01:42:12,520 --> 01:42:19,520

    But I'm only five foot three. That's my excuse. The holds are too far away.

    1148

    01:42:19,520 --> 01:42:24,520

    I have a teammate that did, I think, 18 or 19 seconds. Seems quite fast.

    1149

    01:42:24,520 --> 01:42:31,520

    I mean, don't feel bad for that time. I think I did a similar time and I have no excuses.

    1150

    01:42:31,520 --> 01:42:34,520

    Well, it's an excuse. It's just climbing. You just climb.

    1151

    01:42:34,520 --> 01:42:39,520

    I think it was like cardio halfway. I was just tired.

    1152

    01:42:39,520 --> 01:42:51,520

    I was toying with the idea that my world has invented a paraclimbing speed hold that caters for the impairment.

    1153

    01:42:51,520 --> 01:42:59,520

    And therefore they give us a speed climb where it's got four sections from left to right.

    1154

    01:42:59,520 --> 01:43:04,520

    They tweaked the hold. I reckon it'd be possible, but not with the current hold.

    1155

    01:43:04,520 --> 01:43:09,520

    Oh, so it's an issue with the hold, not like a safety concern.

    1156

    01:43:09,520 --> 01:43:16,520

    It's like anything, isn't it? We are trying speed climbing on the able-bodied hold designed for the seniors.

    1157

    01:43:16,520 --> 01:43:23,520

    And in my head, I want a smiley face smile of footholds and handholds above it.

    1158

    01:43:23,520 --> 01:43:29,520

    So the impairment that's missing has got something to stand on and put a foot on.

    1159

    01:43:29,520 --> 01:43:35,520

    But that's just adapting it for us. We can do it. I'm sure we can do it.

    1160

    01:43:35,520 --> 01:43:39,520

    It's just whether people want to try competition for us.

    1161

    01:43:39,520 --> 01:43:46,520

    OK. Next question. There are comparatively few Paraclimbing World Cups per season.

    1162

    01:43:46,520 --> 01:43:48,520

    Would you like to see more?

    1163

    01:43:48,520 --> 01:43:53,520

    Yes, absolutely. But I do think we have to be careful that enough people can attend.

    1164

    01:43:53,520 --> 01:43:58,520

    As we talked about, some people it's really hard to travel to the competitions.

    1165

    01:43:58,520 --> 01:44:04,520

    So I think if there were six or seven World Cups next year with the more regular circuit,

    1166

    01:44:04,520 --> 01:44:10,520

    I'm not sure that all of them would be attended with the same number.

    1167

    01:44:10,520 --> 01:44:13,520

    I think that's something to be careful.

    1168

    01:44:13,520 --> 01:44:19,520

    I think the last thing I learned is if we had five World Cups like the seniors do,

    1169

    01:44:19,520 --> 01:44:24,520

    I think the top four would be counted and that would give you a yearly ranking.

    1170

    01:44:24,520 --> 01:44:28,520

    The fact that we only have three at the moment means until we hit five,

    1171

    01:44:28,520 --> 01:44:33,520

    we don't trip into actually getting that yearly ranking,

    1172

    01:44:33,520 --> 01:44:40,520

    which is why we all want to go to the World Championships because that gives us our overall ranking.

    1173

    01:44:40,520 --> 01:44:46,520

    And it's financial. It's not cheap. Like Zoe said, it's not cheap at all to run an event.

    1174

    01:44:46,520 --> 01:44:53,520

    So I think it's to do with continents as well. It's which continents those World Cups would be held on.

    1175

    01:44:53,520 --> 01:45:00,520

    So that's why we've got China, Europe for the seniors. They have continents within there.

    1176

    01:45:00,520 --> 01:45:06,520

    But yeah, if they had back-to-back weekends, I wouldn't be able to do it.

    1177

    01:45:06,520 --> 01:45:07,520

    I need at least when I finish...

    1178

    01:45:07,520 --> 01:45:09,520

    I would just run out of vacation days.

    1179

    01:45:09,520 --> 01:45:12,520

    Yeah, there is that as well. Yeah, definitely.

    1180

    01:45:12,520 --> 01:45:18,520

    But after every World Cup, it takes me two weeks to physically recover before I can go to another World Cup.

    1181

    01:45:18,520 --> 01:45:20,520

    But yeah, I'm sure it's going to grow.

    1182

    01:45:20,520 --> 01:45:27,520

    I think if it gets funding, the countries that get funding are the ones that can hold the competitions.

    1183

    01:45:27,520 --> 01:45:32,520

    That's why it's probably France and Austria at the moment.

    1184

    01:45:32,520 --> 01:45:38,520

    Maybe Switzerland. Well, Switzerland's a bit ours, isn't it? So that's three. And then America.

    1185

    01:45:38,520 --> 01:45:44,520

    Yeah, I think that kind of can lead into the next question about future areas of growth.

    1186

    01:45:44,520 --> 01:45:48,520

    What are the potential futures of growth for paragliding?

    1187

    01:45:48,520 --> 01:45:51,520

    Could we see more again, paraspeed climbing?

    1188

    01:45:51,520 --> 01:45:54,520

    I guess people really want to see that.

    1189

    01:45:54,520 --> 01:45:56,520

    And para ice climbing.

    1190

    01:45:56,520 --> 01:46:01,520

    I don't think so. Everyone wants to see disabled people try and go fast. It's interesting.

    1191

    01:46:01,520 --> 01:46:06,520

    I think the way I see it, the biggest development would be in terms of rad setting.

    1192

    01:46:06,520 --> 01:46:09,520

    They're already trying to push the level a little bit.

    1193

    01:46:09,520 --> 01:46:14,520

    But if I look at myself, the routes could still be a lot harder.

    1194

    01:46:14,520 --> 01:46:23,520

    I personally feel like the top level of our pace theory, we cannot always show what we train for and what we can do,

    1195

    01:46:23,520 --> 01:46:28,520

    because we have to, of course, combine the routes with other sports classes.

    1196

    01:46:28,520 --> 01:46:34,520

    So I think, yeah, there's a lot of because we always train on regular climbing routes.

    1197

    01:46:34,520 --> 01:46:39,520

    And then they make, yeah, I know it's kind of hard to describe, but I think it would be a lot more interesting.

    1198

    01:46:39,520 --> 01:46:41,520

    And this could be harder as well.

    1199

    01:46:41,520 --> 01:46:48,520

    Yeah. And I'm thinking maybe I should retire because you make many harder and I won't be able to climb.

    1200

    01:46:48,520 --> 01:46:56,520

    No, as I mentioned earlier, the first time in August, we're going to have a European Continental Championships.

    1201

    01:46:56,520 --> 01:47:00,520

    It's the first ever brand new event coming next year.

    1202

    01:47:00,520 --> 01:47:12,520

    The emphasis is on European. So unfortunately, it knocks anybody out of our sports class that's not in Europe.

    1203

    01:47:12,520 --> 01:47:18,520

    But at least it's progression for us in Europe. We're getting another competition.

    1204

    01:47:18,520 --> 01:47:23,520

    Future, there's discussions and it might take a long time yet,

    1205

    01:47:23,520 --> 01:47:31,520

    but we, the athletes, really want to have the ability to showcase lead climbing.

    1206

    01:47:31,520 --> 01:47:35,520

    And we have, and I think it's the first time in the last couple of years,

    1207

    01:47:35,520 --> 01:47:42,520

    our routes have kind of shared the able-bodied routes, which is not overlap.

    1208

    01:47:42,520 --> 01:47:45,520

    We're getting so good that rather than them set routes for ourselves,

    1209

    01:47:45,520 --> 01:47:51,520

    they're starting to borrow the senior qualifications and adapting them so we can climb them

    1210

    01:47:51,520 --> 01:47:55,520

    because we're now getting to that level.

    1211

    01:47:55,520 --> 01:47:59,520

    I think everybody wants bouldering, just who's currently in.

    1212

    01:47:59,520 --> 01:48:03,520

    We would love to even try all bouldering.

    1213

    01:48:03,520 --> 01:48:10,520

    I personally, I would love to see an AL1, a leg amputee, an arm amputee,

    1214

    01:48:10,520 --> 01:48:16,520

    like the best of the best in para climbing, all climb one route and see who is the best.

    1215

    01:48:16,520 --> 01:48:19,520

    It'd be set for the impairment to be able to climb it.

    1216

    01:48:19,520 --> 01:48:24,520

    I would just love to see a camperser climb off against a legless and an armless

    1217

    01:48:24,520 --> 01:48:28,520

    and just overlap the route because we already climbed the same route,

    1218

    01:48:28,520 --> 01:48:35,520

    but just have a one-off sort of crazy, can we still beat Angelino and he's,

    1219

    01:48:35,520 --> 01:48:38,520

    and he compass the route, like challenge would be good.

    1220

    01:48:38,520 --> 01:48:40,520

    Yeah, I would love to see it.

    1221

    01:48:40,520 --> 01:48:43,520

    Have either of you tried ice climbing?

    1222

    01:48:43,520 --> 01:48:45,520

    I want to. I so want to.

    1223

    01:48:45,520 --> 01:48:47,520

    Yeah, same. Haven't tried it, little us two.

    1224

    01:48:47,520 --> 01:48:49,520

    You've got the best team out there as well.

    1225

    01:48:49,520 --> 01:48:55,520

    Yeah, I'll probably go try two things. There's a small wall where you can try it.

    1226

    01:48:55,520 --> 01:48:59,520

    Yeah, I've been speaking to the Dutch couple ice climbing team,

    1227

    01:48:59,520 --> 01:49:04,520

    and they seem to do a lot of coaching and training and showing you in their little thing,

    1228

    01:49:04,520 --> 01:49:07,520

    in their little built up cake, raising awareness.

    1229

    01:49:07,520 --> 01:49:15,520

    And the person I spoke to basically told me, I think there's three people with impairments

    1230

    01:49:15,520 --> 01:49:21,520

    that currently climb in the UIAA ice climbing able bodies,

    1231

    01:49:21,520 --> 01:49:24,520

    but there are people with impairments that still climb the access.

    1232

    01:49:24,520 --> 01:49:29,520

    So the reason I overlap, it's just not very well advertised at the moment.

    1233

    01:49:29,520 --> 01:49:35,520

    And last question I have here, how does the path to becoming a high level paraclimber

    1234

    01:49:35,520 --> 01:49:42,520

    differ from that of a typical able-bodied comp climber, or is it pretty similar?

    1235

    01:49:42,520 --> 01:49:47,520

    I would say in Paraclime, well, now we have new events, European championships,

    1236

    01:49:47,520 --> 01:49:52,520

    but before that, there were only the World Cups and all championships,

    1237

    01:49:52,520 --> 01:49:54,520

    and if you're lucky nationals.

    1238

    01:49:54,520 --> 01:49:58,520

    So you cannot do the national competition circuit in your country

    1239

    01:49:58,520 --> 01:50:04,520

    and then maybe do the European Cup and then maybe larger events and then go to World Cups.

    1240

    01:50:04,520 --> 01:50:08,520

    It's either you climb a World Cup or you don't climb a competition at all.

    1241

    01:50:08,520 --> 01:50:15,520

    So I think the level at the World Cups is like the mighty people and it's their first competition ever.

    1242

    01:50:15,520 --> 01:50:16,520

    It's a shame for me.

    1243

    01:50:16,520 --> 01:50:21,520

    I had never even done like a local Bollary competition or something, my first competition ever.

    1244

    01:50:21,520 --> 01:50:22,520

    It was a World Cup.

    1245

    01:50:22,520 --> 01:50:24,520

    Terrifying.

    1246

    01:50:24,520 --> 01:50:26,520

    Yes, it was.

    1247

    01:50:26,520 --> 01:50:27,520

    But it's really fun.

    1248

    01:50:27,520 --> 01:50:30,520

    I mean, the community is amazing and everyone knows the experience.

    1249

    01:50:30,520 --> 01:50:34,520

    Everyone's been there at their first competition.

    1250

    01:50:34,520 --> 01:50:40,520

    So I think there aren't many steps in between.

    1251

    01:50:40,520 --> 01:50:45,520

    You can become a World Cup climber quite quickly, I guess.

    1252

    01:50:45,520 --> 01:50:50,520

    And I would say in terms of age, it's a little bit different as well because normally, I mean, I'm 28.

    1253

    01:50:50,520 --> 01:50:54,520

    I'm not old at all, but I started competing when I was 25.

    1254

    01:50:54,520 --> 01:50:58,520

    On the regular circuit, I don't think that would happen.

    1255

    01:50:58,520 --> 01:51:01,520

    So the community is a bit more diverse.

    1256

    01:51:01,520 --> 01:51:03,520

    But yeah, what's the path?

    1257

    01:51:03,520 --> 01:51:08,520

    I don't know, just send an email to your federation or I'll send you a message on Instagram.

    1258

    01:51:08,520 --> 01:51:10,520

    I'd love to help out.

    1259

    01:51:10,520 --> 01:51:15,520

    And then if you can make it to the competition, get classified and then hopefully you can compete.

    1260

    01:51:15,520 --> 01:51:18,520

    I don't think there's a very specific path to follow.

    1261

    01:51:18,520 --> 01:51:20,520

    What do you think, Anisa?

    1262

    01:51:20,520 --> 01:51:31,520

    Okay, so the simple answer is if your country doesn't have a power climbing team or isn't actually even on the awareness,

    1263

    01:51:31,520 --> 01:51:36,520

    contact your federation and make them aware that you would be interested in getting involved in power climbing.

    1264

    01:51:36,520 --> 01:51:44,520

    That would then give them the opportunity to find out what they need to do to bring your country into climbing if there's no nationals.

    1265

    01:51:44,520 --> 01:51:54,520

    I don't know what Christmas is like, but I was just doing local bouldering competitions as a compete against a normal able-bodied person.

    1266

    01:51:54,520 --> 01:52:02,520

    And then because we ran a national to select the team, I think we were quite small at the time.

    1267

    01:52:02,520 --> 01:52:07,520

    Those that hit the podium were given a place on the team because there wasn't a person in that disability.

    1268

    01:52:07,520 --> 01:52:15,520

    So it's just a case of making them aware, the federation, and then you can bring another country in.

    1269

    01:52:15,520 --> 01:52:19,520

    Once the country grows, you might get some nationals.

    1270

    01:52:19,520 --> 01:52:26,520

    And like Chris says, if there's no nationals, they'll probably take you straight into World Cup levels.

    1271

    01:52:26,520 --> 01:52:28,520

    And we work backwards.

    1272

    01:52:28,520 --> 01:52:32,520

    Once we've done World Cups, we trigger nationals.

    1273

    01:52:32,520 --> 01:52:38,520

    Once the nationals have triggered competitions, we find more people.

    1274

    01:52:38,520 --> 01:52:41,520

    But we don't even have regionals at the moment.

    1275

    01:52:41,520 --> 01:52:42,520

    We don't have it in the UK.

    1276

    01:52:42,520 --> 01:52:50,520

    We just put it, just go, I want to join. What do I need to do to join? And where do I go to join?

    1277

    01:52:50,520 --> 01:52:59,520

    And so if you don't have nationals or regionals for selection and you kind of just start out at the international level,

    1278

    01:52:59,520 --> 01:53:07,520

    how do you know if your ability is comparable to the other international competitors?

    1279

    01:53:07,520 --> 01:53:12,520

    Well, of the two countries I'm thinking about, they both had a visual impairment.

    1280

    01:53:12,520 --> 01:53:18,520

    They were both missing some kind of physical, and they therefore could just say, yes, you're going to get classified.

    1281

    01:53:18,520 --> 01:53:20,520

    It's just RP.

    1282

    01:53:20,520 --> 01:53:27,520

    I do think there is a guideline somewhere about the level that the rewards will be more or less safe.

    1283

    01:53:27,520 --> 01:53:30,520

    If you have the level to climb the World Cups.

    1284

    01:53:30,520 --> 01:53:32,520

    But in general, I mean, the community is so nice.

    1285

    01:53:32,520 --> 01:53:37,520

    You can always find a power climber on Instagram that sends them a message.

    1286

    01:53:37,520 --> 01:53:39,520

    We'll figure it out.

    1287

    01:53:39,520 --> 01:53:44,520

    Do you know what level, grade, routes might be?

    1288

    01:53:44,520 --> 01:53:54,520

    We have a document on IC climbing under power climbing documents or resources.

    1289

    01:53:54,520 --> 01:54:08,520

    It's a guideline. But to make your National Federation team doesn't have to be that level of grades.

    1290

    01:54:08,520 --> 01:54:13,520

    First of all, you've got to actually saying, well, I'm the only athlete can I join?

    1291

    01:54:13,520 --> 01:54:19,520

    And I've now joined and I can afford to go to the venue.

    1292

    01:54:19,520 --> 01:54:22,520

    Oh, shit. I now know how good I need to be.

    1293

    01:54:22,520 --> 01:54:25,520

    So I'll go away, train and try again.

    1294

    01:54:25,520 --> 01:54:27,520

    It works backwards because if you don't.

    1295

    01:54:27,520 --> 01:54:37,520

    Yeah, work of level women are three around seven B or something in finals for the men, seven C, eight A.

    1296

    01:54:37,520 --> 01:54:44,520

    But as RP three and like amputees, probably to the sort of the highest levels there.

    1297

    01:54:44,520 --> 01:54:47,520

    Like Chris says, it's not a full seven A.

    1298

    01:54:47,520 --> 01:54:52,520

    It could start at six A six B six C and then check us off.

    1299

    01:54:52,520 --> 01:54:56,520

    So it's different to reading it in a gym.

    1300

    01:54:56,520 --> 01:55:04,520

    Yeah, that's interesting to know, because I mean, they kind of refuse to say a grade for the able bodied climb.

    1301

    01:55:04,520 --> 01:55:10,520

    So it's good to know that they have something, some info out there for pair climbing.

    1302

    01:55:10,520 --> 01:55:13,520

    Well, I think that is all the questions I had.

    1303

    01:55:13,520 --> 01:55:16,520

    Thank you guys so much for joining me.

    1304

    01:55:16,520 --> 01:55:22,520

    Is there anything else that you want to shout out or let people know where they can find you or reach out to you?

    1305

    01:55:22,520 --> 01:55:25,520

    Yeah, sure. I mean, you can find me on Instagram.

    1306

    01:55:25,520 --> 01:55:31,520

    My name is Christiana, Christiana, my name basically with underscore.

    1307

    01:55:31,520 --> 01:55:35,520

    I don't know. I'll type it somewhere.

    1308

    01:55:35,520 --> 01:55:38,520

    Yeah, I'll leave it. I'll leave all the information below as well.

    1309

    01:55:38,520 --> 01:55:40,520

    But I would love it if people reached out.

    1310

    01:55:40,520 --> 01:55:42,520

    I mean, I love something like pair climbing.

    1311

    01:55:42,520 --> 01:55:46,520

    I mean, you know, climbers or just regular climbers.

    1312

    01:55:46,520 --> 01:55:55,520

    And yeah, and I want to say that I just found myself so lucky that I can compete in these pair climbing competitions and meet all these amazing people.

    1313

    01:55:55,520 --> 01:55:59,520

    And you know, it's super happy to be here.

    1314

    01:55:59,520 --> 01:56:01,520

    Thanks so much for your time today. It was lovely.

    1315

    01:56:01,520 --> 01:56:03,520

    Yeah, thank you.

    1316

    01:56:03,520 --> 01:56:06,520

    Anya, do you want to do you have anything?

    1317

    01:56:06,520 --> 01:56:12,520

    Yeah, no, please do contact me through Instagram, dazzle underscore UK.

    1318

    01:56:12,520 --> 01:56:18,520

    I'm certainly up for helping people as much as I can get into climbing.

    1319

    01:56:18,520 --> 01:56:23,520

    Or you can email me Anita UK at Gmail.

    1320

    01:56:23,520 --> 01:56:34,520

    Even if it's not GB related, I can certainly point you in the right direction of where to start and who to contact for your country.

    1321

    01:56:34,520 --> 01:56:37,520

    But yeah, just bug us on social media. It's the best way.

    1322

    01:56:37,520 --> 01:56:40,520

    All right. Awesome. Well, thank you guys so much for joining the podcast.

    1323

    01:56:40,520 --> 01:56:43,520

    Yeah, thanks for having us. Thanks very much for having us.

    1324

    01:56:43,520 --> 01:56:46,520

    Thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast.

    1325

    01:56:46,520 --> 01:56:52,520

    Don't forget to like and subscribe if you enjoyed. Otherwise, you are a super fake climber.

    1326

    01:56:52,520 --> 01:57:03,520

    If you're listening on a podcasting platform, I'd appreciate if you rate it five stars and you can continue the discussion on the free competition climbing discord linked in the description.

    1327

    01:57:03,520 --> 01:57:12,520

    Thanks again for listening.

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